Ep. 21 Transcript

Episode 22 LIVE unPACKing: Emma, Galaxy & Bounty

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00:00
Today, we're welcoming Emma to the show to talk about her two rescue dogs, Bounty and Galaxy. Both were adopted at a young age, Bounty at just two months and Galaxy at four months. From the very beginning, Bounty showed signs of insecurity and was pretty uncomfortable with handling. Over time, Emma worked really hard to build trust with him, made a ton of progress. At one point, she couldn't even touch his ears and now their bond allows her to do that.

00:26
However, Bounty still reacts to bikers and runners and trucks and other dogs.  And Emma finds it difficult to focus on his training while managing both dogs out on walks. Galaxy on the other hand, isn't reactive like Bounty, but tends to be more fearful in general. Emma, thank you so much for joining us today. I know you've been putting in a lot of work with both of the dogs.

00:50
Can you share how things have been going recently and where you're hoping to see things kind of progress more? Well, first of all, thank you so much for this amazing opportunity. I can't wait to dive in both my dogs.  Everything is spot on. I mean, that is the case from the beginning. We have put a lot of work and  we've gotten to the point where our dogs are used to lots of change. So at the moment we have just relocated to a new country. So we are three  months into our new country.

01:18
And  I just feel like now is the time to focus more since they're at their three years old. So they're at that age that now is the time to fix the behaviors that are sort of settled in, in a way, and have become more solid and not necessarily the good behaviors have become solid.  So at the moment Bounty and Galaxy, so Bounty on Walk, he is still reactive towards bikers, cars. And that's only because  in Cyprus where we used to live,

01:43
Anyone that had an SUV usually had a dog in there. And every time they would pass by on the street, dogs would bark at us. So then he associated SUV cars with dogs in the inside. So now he just barks in anticipation of, okay, there's an SUV.  We have been keeping our distance. So what I've been trying to do is whenever I see a distraction coming, I try to either stop walking because I know if they're too close to us and I don't have enough space to go back.

02:06
I'll just stop walking because there's less stimulus for him when he's not moving, which sometimes works, sometimes doesn't work that much depending on how close they are.  Um,  but, um, yeah, I just keep him away from the distractions or keep him at a distance, looking at the distraction. Hopefully, you know, it will, he will become more familiar with it and settle down. I have tried treats in the past. So getting his attention when there's a distraction, which is okay. He still does it, but you still get to the point where I can't, I don't always have treats with me.

02:34
And  depending on how stimulated he is, he might not react to the treats. So that's Bounty in a nutshell, which I was, as I was starting to say, he's been like this since the beginning. So when he was a puppy and the reason why he became reactive, I think, yes, he had it in him, but one of his very, very first memories with me is me taking him to the vet. And when we went to the vet, the first vet, was amazing. You know, she played with him. She kind of eased it in. She gave him his vaccine. He was fine. The second time we went, and now this is a

03:03
what, three month old puppy sitting in my lap. And there was this lady next to us in in the, in the sitting room, the waiting room. And she was like, Oh, what a lovely dog. I pet him? I was like, yeah, okay, sure. So she's busy petting him, which is fine. And then all of a sudden she decides to grab him without asking me. So she puts her two hands on my puppy and he snaps at her. I've never seen a puppy so young snap. So he snapped and was like, Oh shit, we're going to have problems  when he grows older. And then to make matters even worse, we go into the vet. It was a male.

03:32
different person, had no patience at all, and he just handled him like he was a piece of meat. And he was squeaking and crying. And so he's been terrified of it ever since that interaction.  So like things have happened that have made his fears worse. And I feel like I'm at that point where

03:47
Treats are not working. I can't always distract him. And if, for example, Galaxy is hyper about something, she doesn't react to something, but if she sees a cat, she's just going to get excited. She'll trigger him. So he goes on a rant.  And Galaxy, even though she's not reactive, I don't know, she's like bipolar. She's fearless in some situations. Like if you take her off the leash, she'll disappear. She will go. She will go as far as she can go.  But on the other hand...

04:12
She might be scared in the house  if there's a bucket of laundry, for example, she might be scared to pass around the bucket of laundry.  So if like something changes in her environment, she gets a little bit weirded out. I wouldn't say changes necessarily, but if something big that wasn't there suddenly appears there, yes. So if the vacuum, which they're fine with the vacuum, if they sensitize them, they don't care about the noise, I can vacuum around them. But if I leave the vacuum in front of her, she'll probably cry because she can't jump over it. Okay. So new things.

04:42
are also scary for her. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. What, what country have you relocated to? We're in Kuwait now. Okay. And how would you describe the environment and the triggers as opposed to when you were in Cyprus? How are they similar or different? Times 10.  Oh no.  Because there was a lot of traffic. There's a lot of people. Oh, and there's even a worse scenario here because the people are not used to

05:09
interacting with animals so they don't know how to interact with them. And in Cyprus, we had dogs barking at us from the window. That's fine. But here we have people sticking their heads out of the cars and barking at the dogs.  gosh, no.  The kids are even worse. So I don't trust my dogs around kids because the kids, as soon as Bounty senses,  as soon as Bounty senses the kids,  their fear, he will lunge. He will lunge at a child. Like Galaxy doesn't care. Bounty on the other hand, there are times where

05:36
kids have tried to approach and I've been able to tell them, okay, slow down, let my dog come to you. And if he comes to you, just don't move, just be there until you see that he's relaxed. And we start off nicely. However, once the kid gets scared, he's sensitive immediately. And then I'll have to pull him back because he lunges forward. And then the kid gets scared and then it's a whole merry-go-round.  We got attacked by three German Shepherd dogs. So  bounty, and this is one of the reasons why he's now reactive towards dogs also. And you'd think that he'd be reactive towards  smaller dogs.

06:06
bigger dogs because it was big dogs but he's reactive to any dog any male dog he won't let them get close  and on the other hand he tries to pick a fight with the older dogs so if he sees a bigger dog on the other side of the street he will try to lunge towards the big dog even though i know he's doing it out of fear what were gonna ask madison i was gonna ask  um  about  which of the triggers seems to impact

06:30
him and also you the most of all of those or is it equal and  what's the frequency here, right? Is he getting triggered like once a week, once a day, every time he leaves the house, 10 times he leaves the house, what's the situation? He said here I am.  Yeah, he's obsessed with me, like he'll just wait for me everywhere.  I would say that he gets triggered on a daily basis,  on the walk, more with my husband, less with me because I guess my husband and I have

06:58
different styles. So I have more patience to, you know, keep him away from the trigger, wait for it to pass and keep my distance, which my husband doesn't really have that patience. So he'll just pass by and then he will lunch. So I would say he definitely does it on a daily basis once or twice, maybe three times per walk, depending on how close the trigger is. And by trigger, I mean, it's worse with delivery bikes, motorbikes  and  people that are passing like close to us, more, mostly men, like  he'll smell a woman, but

07:25
The men, will, I'm like 99 % he's gonna lunge. So I just have to stop, keep my distance, wait for the guy to pass, and we'll carry on. And it's not like he'll bite,  but he will lunge and just like, if he catches him, he'll nibble, he'll try to nibble.  He's tiny, not gonna, he can't really, he's never actually bitten anybody or  shown any other aggressiveness beyond the time when he's scared. And I can see that because he's scared, he tries to, he reacts like this.  I have something to say, but I wanted to wait to see if you had anything, Madison. I have  another question.

07:55
but it can wait. No, go ahead. I was going to ask if you could describe for us, a little bit more about  just the training  that you've done sort of leading up to those moments when you're experiencing the triggers and also what that looks like in that moment, like in as much detail as you can kind of offer us. OK, so  when I'm with both of them.

08:18
Like I said, the only thing I can do is, let's say, for example, I'm working on the street and I can see that there's a huge truck coming. I'll go as far left as I can, close to the wall, close to the pavement, and I'll stop in my tracks and I will let him, I will let him look at the truck because if I don't let him look at the truck and it catches him by surprise, he will lunge just because he hears the noise and close to him. During our walks, I try to find like not too crowded places, but crowded enough to have enough things going on. Maybe like the ambulance is passing or lots of cars or

08:47
lots of bikes and we'll sit on the grass or on the bench or whatever and we'll just sit and we'll watch. So from a distance we're fine, but I haven't managed to be able to get closer. So I haven't, I haven't managed to cause from the grass to the pavement to the street, there's not that much distance. So  yeah, we're fine on the pavement when there's cars in the main street, let's say, but if we're on a side road, there's nowhere I can go further.

09:08
to kind of create more distance between us. I've stopped taking treats with us. So I'm just using,  he's calm on the leash. So if I just sit down in a public place, he will sit down with me and he will watch everything go by. As long as something doesn't come within three meters, let's say from us, we're okay. But closer than that, I haven't managed to also because I don't have anybody that I don't know that can kind of help me desensitize him towards strangers, towards bikes, towards whatever the case might be. And also here we have too many cats, which they're getting used to the cats now. So.

09:38
I'm not reacting to cats anymore. And also I know that they feel my fear. So I know that when I'm stressed about something, they can sense that. So I try to also not change my pace, not change the way my tone of voice, not to excite them even more. And today actually on our walk, we managed to walk past two cats without having them lunge towards them. They were at a safe distance, like six meters, but nonetheless, they usually do try. But on the way back, they were like, I don't know, 10 other more cats and they did try to get towards one or two of the cats. So I guess it's still a win.

10:07
I mean, we didn't react to two cats, which was something big. Has anyone explained ever to you? Let me think how I want to ask that. Do you understand the difference between training and management? Has anybody ever really had that conversation with you? It would be very common. The common answer would be no. So I'm not trying to bait you into anything. Most people I don't think understand it, but if you do, tell me.

10:34
In my opinion, from what I think that I've gathered along my research, think that  I have, I've been doing management, I think, not training with them. Okay. I'm  just doing that in the situation when it arises.  I don't know how to prepare for that situation for it arises. And it's situation when it does. Okay. I also noticed that you said he's obsessed with you. He is obsessed with me. There's an interesting dynamic going on there to me that, that, and I don't.

11:03
this isn't a judgment phase. I think people should live with their animals the way that they want that works for them. But like for you to be in the middle of conversation and him to crawl up on your lap and stand and you to just kind of, it tells me something. Do you see what I'm saying? And again, it's not a judgment, but it tells me that things like that happen. And then they're just like, he does, does he do that a lot? Does does he, does he cross a personal boundary and interject onto you a lot when you're at home?

11:31
I wouldn't say he does it a lot, but he will do it because we're away from home for eight hours when I do come home and he hasn't. Okay. Like he will attach to me close to me, but then he'll do it for he'll sit close to me for five minutes. He doesn't like cuddling. He's not a very affectionate in terms of like galaxy. As soon as I'm on the couch, she'll come and lie in my legs and she won't move for the rest of the night. Fountain will come. He'll sit for five, 10 minutes. And then depending on how much he's missed me, how many hours I've been away from the house, then he'll just go and he'll do his thing or he'll be at it. Okay. Oh, we see me.

12:01
But yeah, he does. often do you do this?  Like a video call on your computer on your sofa? Is it new? Is it something different? I thought he looked weirded out. He  had his head on your head. I saw a little bit of whale eye. Yeah. He kind of looked at the computer like, who is she talking to?  So I thought he looked just a tiny bit, just yeah, like. Yeah, he looked anxious to me. Like he was like,  I gotta like, sometimes dogs will do that awkward, I'm gonna stand on you.

12:29
thing when they're just feeling the billy go so that's why was awkward Billy goat. Okay. I've never spoken. I think I haven't spoken on the computer on the couch like ever if I'm on my computer music at the table. think he they also heard their name. So he's like, why are you talking about me? he and looked out the window was like what are you doing? Yeah. Yeah. But I also had ghost.

12:54
I'm a softie, so I do know that I made mistakes in terms of giving him too much choice. For example, when he was a younger puppy, he wouldn't want to go a certain route. He wants to go his own route. But then  I managed to show him that, no, you're not capable of making decisions. I need to make this decision. So this is the way we're going to go. And I didn't do that by pulling him or dragging him or whatever the case was. I did that by with treats. Every time he gave me attention and he walked a little bit towards me, I would give him a little treat. So that also helped with his recall because his recall is actually quite good.

13:23
We took him to the beach the other day and Galaxy sprinted off into the bushes. My husband went after her and then Bounty went to run after them and I said, Bounty stop and he stopped. So we were just sitting there waiting for them to come back. But that could be because he's too attached to me or because we've practiced this, this recall game amongst us when he was younger. But I can't say I can rely on that a hundred percent, it mostly, most of the time he listens. What's coming to mind for me is this. And I really, really hope, Madison's heard me say this a million times, but.

13:52
I really hope that this makes sense because I don't have another way to communicate it. And it's part of why I'm being so quiet is because I've been trying to think of a proper analogy that wasn't just this idea in my head. When people come into recovery, there is a particular thing that some people do, not everybody, but some people, and they'll start detailing  all of the issues.  What I mean by that is this, they'll talk about, they'll try to figure out what it is. And so they'll overanalyze.

14:21
they're drinking, they'll say, well, maybe it's just the time that I drink, or maybe it's just the, the, what I drink or who I drink with, or the place that I drink, or in this, this deep over-analyzation begins about a very simple issue, which is  your life is not manageable. It's out of control. That that's, that's the core issue. And no matter how much we try to dissect,

14:50
whether Jack Daniels makes you, whether whiskey makes you more drunk than tequila, or you shouldn't drink wine,  or I can only have it,  none of it is ever gonna matter. And that's the analogy that I was thinking of when you were talking about all this, because they're all, it's all so specific, and it will drive you crazy with a dog if you do that.  It doesn't matter if it's men, it doesn't matter if it's every third Tuesday, it only happens this time and this time.

15:18
I would throw all of that out the window because it will drive you crazy. It will. We're never going to be inside of their mind. But one thing that we can do is look at what's in front of us. And that's the great thing about dogs because they're always living in the present moment. You know, we're here and there and everywhere else, but they're only here. So, so I'm going to put a pin in that sentence right there. And I'm going to add another example, the vet thing, the 12 week old thing at the vet. It is likely that that really bothered your dog for sure.

15:48
But the thing that had a more lasting impact was doing nothing about that it bothered your dog when that happened. That is far greater  of a contributor than that lady doing that briefly or that vet manhandling a little bit. Those things are unpleasant. And there is such a thing as, you know, a single incident trauma that a dog has one experience and it's really hard for them. But when they're that young, it generally isn't that.

16:17
It's because after that happened, nothing was really done about how the dog felt. And it was like, oh, the dog's afraid of the vet now. And then that story is over the dog now. When in reality, it just had a bad experience and  that could have not been the story, you know, had we worked on that, but we don't know what we don't know. You know, you just go, we're all going through life bumping into walls. Like we don't know.  So that's what I'm thinking about is how can we...

16:46
in this phone call, because I think that we can in this episode, how can we help you and people like you shift your perspective from all of these things that are going on laid out in front of you like playing cards, you know, like a little, how can we change that to what if I didn't have all of these in front of me? What if the whole story was erased and I had to walk outside with my dog today? What would I do to help my dog? What would I do to move forward?

17:13
How can I set some of these things down and come up with a plan? The first thing for me would be you and your husband got to get on the same page or only one of you needs to be doing stuff because what's got to be, there's a phrase in the US is what's good for the goose is good for the gander. And it's basically just that everybody needs to be doing the same thing because if a dog, we get good at what we practice. And if a dog is allowed,

17:41
to rehearse undesirable behaviors with one parent and not with the other, that gets confusing and you will not have the results that you want. But saying that, is 100 % true and I know that's a whole different story, us getting on board. But the dogs, they act different when they're on the walk with him and they act different on the walk with me. So they kind of know that there's different expectations from us. whereas Galaxy will just pull her lungs out.

18:09
when she's with me because I don't, I don't let her walk unless she stopped pulling. that's why she's a lot more calmer with me. So I think that even if I can't get him on board because of, I don't know, lack of patience, lack of time during the walk, you know, cause it's right before work. So whatever the case might be, um, I think it's still worth me finding a way to practice with them as much as I can. Cause I do spend more time with and then slowly get my husband on board later. Yeah. I mean, in those situations, you do just have to do the best that you can. You're dealing with, you know, two people, not one. And you can't.

18:39
You can't make it, but what I always suggest is if a person is struggling to maintain a training program, then just make them part of the management program. They don't need to be part of the training program. They can help in many other ways and they might be ways that they, you know, find more enjoyable for them. No, I will be on the training program by myself. wouldn't go.  Like I'll just be doing that alone. That's a very common thing. Women say to us as a matter of fact,  when they have husbands and it's okay. mean,

19:07
Management is still so important and having help and having consistent help on management is still a huge deal. And there's a lot of people that don't even have that. Okay, Jerry, I had two thoughts when you said, can we do on this episode on this call? My first thought was to get like super crystal clear about the management bucket versus the modification bucket, right? Management makes today less stressful, makes today less risky. Modification changes tomorrow.

19:34
makes tomorrow look different, two totally separate things. You actually can't even get to modification till you have management  figured out and in place because of that rehearsal of behavior.  So the modification, now here's the other thought I had, which is I'm so glad that you phrased it in the way that you did, Jerry, to kind of strip away all of these details because as soon as you said that, it was like, saw, well, okay, if you strip all of those details away, then the first couple of steps are the same no matter what. Right.

20:02
And then yes, the path can and will diverge after that.  know, fear-based reactivity versus excitement-based versus a genetic thing versus, you know, all kinds of different stuff.  And we learn a lot during  those first couple of steps to help us figure out what the right path is. So we don't have to just guess now because, you know, I have a lot of hesitation in even doing like assessment diagnosis, because a lot of times when you take those first couple of steps,  things look  really different.

20:32
than they did before you took those first few steps. So for me,  in my training, those first few steps are gonna look like food, a different relationship with food for your dog and building patterns that are  really easy for your dog to repeat. For some dogs, that's having verbal communication. For some dogs, that's having a hand signal and movement and  something that your body is cueing to them. Every dog is super different. For some dogs, it's a scatter.

21:01
and just kind of getting them into their natural dog state. But that does a lot more for us than just having a treat to distract them. That is activating the parasympathetic nervous system and  actually allowing them to regulate and actually recover. Because unfortunately, it sounds like there are plenty of triggers to be stacking  on a single walk. So we really need to have these like decompression pit stops along your walk to bring them back down to a baseline.

21:29
The other thing is that bounty's gotta be walked solo for modification. Can we build really good management to where you feel  much more equipped to walk both of them? Yeah, and that's gonna get easier over time. But not if you can't prevent the reactive behavior when you have both of them.  Not until you're at that point. Until you're at that point, solo walks because that's no fun for anyone. Then you're stressed.

21:56
And then bounding stressed. then, you know, everyone, like nobody really gets anything out of that. And then we're just taking steps backwards versus  taking half as long of a walk for each of them individually. It's the quality, right? Much more important than the quantity. Okay. That was my  just  word. I would not, I would, I would not have said it that eloquently, but that is exactly what I do as well with my clients is  everybody starts at step one. We start building a different relationship with food.

22:25
Um, we don't use treats  at all.  I, really don't, I really don't care to, if a dog needs more than it's food, we can add in an egg, baby. A sweet little egg. Um, because I want the relationship to really be there with the food and the dog, but also the concept and the person. Like  I spent many years not training with food because I really just didn't understand. I really, I really had no idea.

22:55
how to build food drive. I didn't know the power of reinforcing things  all the time. I didn't know what Madison just talked about. just made a video about it the other day about changing patterns.  And how do you change a pattern if you have no reinforcers? If it's just you and a leash. Like it's not, it's not,  I don't want to say it's not possible. It's just,  ugh, like what a hard road to hoe, you know? It just seems, you know, it.

23:25
that way when there's an easier, clearer way. And now there are  alternative reinforcements that we can also add in. Play,  toys, affection, hype. Let's go, right? Like add things in, layer things in. Food will always be the clearest. It will always be the best for teaching things. It's so clear. You can be so accurate with your reinforcement in a way that you can't with other stuff.  Yeah. Yeah. I've taught, I've inadvertently taught my dog so many things.

23:53
with food that I never,  I mean, I taught him how to run full speed on cue. I didn't even mean to do that. I just, I saw this moment in the process of how we work with food that he would get really pleased with himself and excited. And so I would start to make this sound and eventually he, and I would have never discovered some of the better things about his personality without food.

24:20
because you get an American bully going in on a toy and you're going to see approximately one side of their personality. And it's fun, but it's not as multi-dimensional to me as what I've been able to unlock with simply, literally just these couple little gills with food. it's all I do. And I do want to...

24:44
quickly just say, or I guess asking a little bit of information on their breeds. They look like little herding  mixes,  possibly spaniels? Can't tell. Well, you'd never guess what their mom is. Their mom is a mini pincher. Oh, with what?  Right. We'd never have guessed. We don't know. Wow.  They're awfully big. How did she have puppies? How did she have puppies from a big dog? She had eight puppies.

25:11
And  three of the puppies were like bountying galaxy. So they've got a lot of fur and they're big and they look like a spaniel slash there's a breed. I don't know if you have it in the U S it's called Kokoni.  So K O K O N I if you Google it, it will, you'll see their face. So I think at the further might've been a Kokoni, but they also like a little bit of spaniel characteristics.  I mean, galaxy, she's amazing with her nose. She could easily be trained to  sniff out whatever you want.

25:40
nothing to do with that but I think that he's got such an emotional connection that he could have been if he had been trained better he could have been like an emotional support dog I think that he could have um interesting yeah I thought they were just some kind of like a spaniel like a spaniel mix or something the reason I thought hurting was when you said that bounty seems to have the need to watch and to see

26:03
I thought maybe there was like a, like a hurting thing in there, but I agree. He's got a little spaniel face, which is  a little soft spot for that.  What are your questions, Emma, of like, what are these first, you know, first few steps? you, um, you know, we talked earlier and I will ask again, um, if you are interested in doing some virtual training with one of our interns to help,  to help sort of get these first few steps locked in.

26:29
I 100,000%. It's exactly what you guys said. Like I have over-analyzed everything and I'm picking on details and the problem is, it's just the problem. Like where it comes out, how it comes out, doesn't matter. because I ran out of knowledge on how to deal with the problem, I think that I just fixated on all these small things. And then because it got to the point where I was so overwhelmed, was like, okay, I can't do anything else.

26:52
leaving it to the universe to help me out. And then you guys emailed me, which is,  um, Spoken like a true alcoholic. Just kidding.  That's exactly the process. That's what happens. The universe just opens the door. Yeah. It's the human mind. It is. It's the human condition overanalyze to pick apart, to be stuck and stopped where your knowledge ends.  happens to all of us. So I'm glad the universe opened.

27:20
it's wacky little doors to us.  It was about time. I've been putting it out there. mean, I've been trying. I've had them for there'll be three this February. So end of February is their birthday.  And and I've been trying as much as I can with whatever resources I could get my hands on. But  I got it got to the point where it's not enough. And to be honest, like life is really expensive. I know it's in the US expensive. It's expensive in Kuwait. And  it's not affordable to  dogs or really everything in Kuwait is like

27:48
10 times more expensive than in Cyprus. And I used to feed them raw. 10 times. telling you, if I was paying, I'll speak to you in euros, but you'll get the analogy. I was paying about four euros for one kilo of pre-made raw meat in Cyprus. It's 25 euros in Kuwait for one kilo.  Oh my gosh.  Yeah. So I've now switched from raw to homemade.  That's not sustainable. Goodness me. Wow. We don't make that much money. So.

28:17
because I've been spending all this money on, you know, traveling with them,  making sure they have everything they need, supplement wise, food wise, whatnot. It's just, I haven't managed to put aside for their training. It's been, I know it's supposed to be a priority, but  it's never, it's never been the right time. So I'm so glad that this- Well, we are glad that the time is right. too. And it's great for the interns too. It's really, I encouraged  dog trainers as much as possible to-

28:43
work with people from different countries, learn about what those countries are like and what those people are facing and what the culture's like. You know, we do this thing in the West where we're like, everything's exactly like us.  And so we just don't get the exposure. So I'm happy for, I'm happy for everyone involved to learn and progress together. Absolutely. So I will reach out to you, Emma, and get that set up  and answer any questions you have  in the meantime in the transition.

29:12
but again, just thank you so much for  hopping on with us and talking about your two. This I think was a really, really great  different look  at this type of behavior because we really weren't talking about the behavior. We were talking about the solution. We're talking about what do we do? How do we move forward? that's, gosh, that's what we're just trying to do. That's  That's the goal, exactly.