Ep. 21 Transcript

Episode 23 LIVE unPACKing: Ruth & Corn

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00:00

Welcome to Unpacked. Today, we're speaking with Ruth about her dog, Corn, and their journey together in the heart of downtown Toronto. Corn has been with Ruth for almost six years, and while they've made great progress in managing his reactivity, the unpredictable nature of city life, street festivals, live music, off-leash dogs, continues to present challenges. One of Ruth's biggest goals is helping Corn feel more secure in those unpredictable moments.

 

00:27

while also managing her own anxiety, which she knows can have some influence. She's worked with an e-caller to build engagement and structure, but she's looking for a reframe that will allow Corn some more freedom without increasing risk. So Ruth, thank you so much for joining us today. I know that we are all ready to have a conversation about e-callers and reactive behavior and some shifts that could really help you and Corn move forward, but I wanna start with a very specific question for you.

 

00:55

Ken, you talk to me about your life and routine with corn. I'm looking for a day in the life of corn. Oh gosh, a day in the life of corn. It's corn! He's got the juice! Yeah, he is, yeah, he's pretty like on routine. I think more recently we've been able to sprinkle in like more enrichment in the sense of like having more long line freedom and having

 

01:25

going to more like novel places in the city that he hasn't been to just because I recently  got my license and I have access to a car. So that's been great. That's a big deal. That opens up a lot. Yeah. Yeah. was definitely one of my goals  when we got Corn, you know, five years ago, there were just like trainers who were telling me like take him outside of the city. And like at that time, it was just like not accessible for me to be able to do that. Like it

 

01:54

we didn't have access to a car and have the funds to be able to even like afford that.  So it just like,  we were very limited with like what we were able to do. again, downtown, it's like very dense. So essentially, I have a partner also. So we split a lot of like the responsibilities of corn.  So in the morning,  I know myself, I have to kind of have like a very calm, chill morning. And sometimes that doesn't necessarily include walking corn, it kind of that really looks like

 

02:23

giving to myself and being able to, you know, I'm doing an animal welfare and behavior class. So in the mornings, I kind of dedicate a lot of time to that. So my partner will take corn out of the crate, will go for a structured walk. Typically, he's doing like place work while my partner is getting ready and like we're having coffee and he eats, you know, we do all the things first. We eat first, we, you know, have some coffee first, corn will either get fed after the walk or if he's, you know, being very patient, he'll get fed before. We're not really too like...

 

02:53

faster, like loose on that kind of thing. But yeah, structured neighborhood walk. And then when he gets back,  he'll do a little bit more place work, we'll usually try to like mix in some like play with like tug,  if we get a chance to do it outside, like flirt pole.  And then he'll kind of be back in the crate for like a few hours until I get home for lunch. And then usually around lunch, I'm able to meet up and take him for a walk with like one of our friends in the neighborhood. So we'll do like a little like pack walk in the neighborhood.

 

03:22

That'll be maybe like 30 minutes, 45 minutes, and then we'll get back. He's kind of in the crate again.  And then on some days I'll be like, I'm able to take him out to, you know, just down by the water.  But most days it'll kind of just be like an hour long walk around the neighborhood. We'll usually go to like the dog park that's around to watch  and counter condition at the dog park.  Just cause Corn, he used to get very excited about dogs.

 

03:51

playing.  And I wanted to kind of use the dog park as a way to work on that. So we would like do our like 30 minute walk to the dog park, hang out at the dog park.  Maybe I'd bring a toy, see if he'd want to engage with that toy. And then we kind of do a walk around and then walk back. And that's kind of our daily routine. In the night we more place work more tug just to get kind of energy out. But yeah, that's kind of it. Like that's the daily that's the structure.

 

04:19

When you are on the structured walks in the neighborhood, what are the expectations of Corn during that activity? So kind of like a structure sandwich. So I think about it in the sense of like, OK, we start the walk. Corn used to have this big problem with wanting to mark everything right away. Like we get outside, he's marking. I knew that it wasn't because he needed to pee.

 

04:48

you know, he's an adult dog. was like, okay, yeah, he obviously just like wants to mark and maybe he's like a little bit anxious outside. And so we,  I essentially will ask him to heal first and then  I'll give us maybe like, we live in like a laneway apartment. So I kind of give us the stretch of the laneway to have like a nice heal, lots of like check-ins. And then at the end of the laneway.

 

05:14

usually give him an opportunity to sniff and there's like a little patch where you can kind of like it's a nice like sniffy spot he kind of knows that this is a spot where he goes to sniff and like just have a little walk around and then when we are moving away from that maybe I'll even like let him sniff like a little bit halfway up the second part of the laneway but then we pretty much live in a neighborhood where it is all very high traffic streets so for the most part he is healing

 

05:43

for majority of the walk until we can get to the high school that has more of like an open field area. And then there I'll actually let him like really sniff. Like I'll either bring like a long line or I'll bring my like retractable leash and I'll switch things up. I'll let him have like a sniff around there. And he's usually like pretty good around there. Like people typically don't let their dogs off leash there, which is why I bring him there.  I try to go places where I know that people will not be letting their dogs off leash or there will be

 

06:11

you know, there's like lots of security in Toronto. So like there will be people who are actually managing people who do let their dogs off leash.  Um, cause yeah, any like anywhere that's near a dog park, we can't go to because there is this like concern that we won't be able to manage. I won't be able to like manage the situation as well. What is corn's favorite favorite thing, favorite activity? Wendy and see, I can see you smiling and laughing.  So when do you just see corn just so full of joy?

 

06:40

Oh, God, it's truly when like it was I can picture it because it happened yesterday. We were at the beach, he found a big old stick. And he was just running around with the stick showing it off showing off shaking his little bum running up and down. He would kind of like come over to me to like engage and then he'd do like a little play bow. And then we'd like run together up and down along like the shoreline tug a little bit like that's his like he loves that he's definitely more like

 

07:08

sniffy dog. He doesn't really, you know, he has some like dog friends. He's dog selective. I don't really push too much dog on dog play. But the personal play he loves. He loves personal play. He loves to engage with us and play.  He definitely shows us when he wants it. So we really do try to like mix it into his daily routine of just like some kind of personal play with him.

 

07:34

Because he would be great. He would just be doing it all the time if we didn't give it to him.  he loves that. He loves tug. He loves to just like, he loves to run free. Like it just is, there's limitations with that, unfortunately, where we live. Yeah. So I definitely want Jerry to jump in and see what questions she has  kind of floating around. But first, just give us kind of a high level picture of  what are the really difficult parts of your day week?

 

08:02

or life with corn? Like, where are you feeling like you need more guidance and support? I guess like,  it's really,  oh man,  cause sometimes I've noticed that  everything will be like, we'll be having a pretty good walk. And even in my head, I'm thinking maybe it's because maybe he's been flooded with too many triggers or something like that. But just sometimes he'll randomly, randomly pop off and

 

08:30

I almost like, cause it'll be like two different things. Like one time it was to, it was like, I mean, again, it of makes sense. it was like this a cargo bike, but again, he doesn't do, he doesn't really like lunge or react to bikers or skateboards or anything like that. Like that's something that we kind of curved very early on and worked through.  So yeah, like,  and it won't be moving. Like it'll just kind of like be at the crosswalk and he'll lunge at it.  Is it something that he doesn't

 

09:00

typically see as much?  No, we live right when you open up our door, it's a bike lane. he sees it. So he's used to that. Yeah, he's super used to it. So  I just, always wonder, because  I sometimes try to clock, like, is it at the end of the walk? Like, maybe that in my mind is like, OK, maybe we should have gotten home sooner, because maybe he's already dealt with a lot of triggers and suppressed a lot of that reactiveness.  Or maybe someone, because he's definitely, I don't necessarily

 

09:30

He's not good with strangers again and everyone in the world is a stranger unless they've done like an  introduction with him. that, like, and in the city, like,  if we're walking, and I always find that this kind of is the case. When you have a dog, people will ask you for directions because they have, they will ask you for directions because they believe that you know where you're going. Cause you're like, oh, you must walk a dog. So you must know the streets.  And when that, so when people approach me,

 

09:59

Like it's game over, he's lunging for sure. He's lunging for sure. He can pretty much ignore people as long as they ignore him. But it's like that random encounter. It's the randomness and the unpredictability of things. I think it makes me nervous because we've had some very unfortunate situations where they haven't been good encounters.  And I think that I feed into that a little bit. And whenever anyone will approach me, even if it is like,

 

10:29

Like one time a friend was actually, they saw me across the street and I was crossing the street.  And when I got there, Corn was totally fine. This person was waving at us. But then as soon as they like stepped forward,  Corn was gone. And he, he had met this person before, but it was that unpredictability of it that he just went for it. And I was like, Whoa, okay. And you know, Corn's muzzle trained too. So it's like, you know, if I feel like maybe I'm, there's some days where I'm like, oof, okay, maybe I'm not like in the best.

 

10:58

headspace that I know my dog needs to get walked, I'll do all of the things to make sure that there's no problem. Because it makes me more comfortable knowing like, okay, if he does like get into a situation where he has to do that, like at least I've done what I can do to like keep everybody out of harm's way as best as possible. So that's,  I think that's like the thing that I want the most help with because I just, it's been six years and we've gotten to a pretty good place where, you know,  we're comfortable, right? But I'm very willing to...

 

11:27

push a little bit and raise the bar a little bit because I see that we've made a lot of progress, albeit it's taken six years, but  like I can see the progress is there and it's starting to plateau and I just don't want to get to a place where I am like, this is it. This is our life now.  Because I know that he can, I just don't want to also  then put him in situations where like maybe he isn't ready for these things and maybe I'm not managing them.

 

11:56

best way or moving through them in the best way.  So yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. And also just, yeah, I also never want to be reliant on any tool. I think that there was a time that we were really reliant  on like a halty and then it was the prong, which we still use. And now it's the e-collar. And I think that  I would exactly what you mentioned earlier, like reframe, I would love to just like reframe my approach.

 

12:23

in using this or maybe not using it anymore. Like I'm open, I'm open. And that's something that Ruth and I had, you know, briefly talked about kind of in advance of this call  is following this conversation.  You know, rather than having her work with one of our interns, I'm going to work with Ruth and we're going to explore some just alternative approaches and see  maybe where the e-caller is working against us,  maybe where, you know, it's not needed anymore. And so I think that that's something that we can

 

12:53

Maybe that's even more of a conversation after our time training together, where we can kind of look back on that  and  kind of reflect on that process.  In general, very high level general statement that I'm going to make about tool use and reactive behavior is that when we have a dog who is displaying that type of behavior, what we are needing to help them do is decompress because they already have so much stimulus. And in fact, every tool you just described,

 

13:22

adds more stimulus into the situation, whether it's the e-collar, whether it's the prong, whether it's the halty, that is all more. More, more, more, more, more when what we really need is less. So that's just something to keep in the front of your mind that often we feel that more is the answer and it's not.  And what we need is to strip that away and teach patterns of decompression that dogs can actually repeat.  but I'm sure, I'm sure Jerry has some more clarifying investigatory questions to ask.

 

13:52

Well, I was thinking the same thing that you were thinking. That was my first thought was it seems very stimulating. And the first thing that the listeners need to know is that I regularly have said this,  that Toronto  and LA are number one on my shit list for dog culture.  I mean,

 

14:13

I really just want to acknowledge how difficult it is to have a dog in Toronto, especially when you live in the city proper, like right in the middle of a major city. don't even think everyone in the world realizes what a major city Toronto is.  Yeah. And it's very different than the culture in LA, but what they both have in common  is, um, this weird bizarre entitlement around breeds of dogs and the off leash lifestyle.

 

14:40

in such  areas of dense population is really bizarre to me. And it's not just a one or two times I've heard that it's hundreds upon hundreds of times that  myself and my friends and other people have reported that. So I think that's important to know.  When I hear that a lot of tools have been added,  it isn't really,  I'm off of the moral thing now. I don't care about that.  There's...

 

15:05

There's context that needs to be provided. These are layered, complicated situations that we have to dive into to make blanket statements. Like somebody should or shouldn't be using a tool,  um, is a little basic, a little basic bitch to me. You know what I'm saying? So I don't want to,  because everybody that's listening is invited here, whether they use tools or not, whether they, so I don't want to demonize tools. What I would like to say is that I am seeing this trend.

 

15:32

of people who have not been really ever taught anything about the inner workings of a dog and they've seen dog trainers.  They're going, they're trying to get help. They're looking at, you  know, material online. They may have even reached out for a consult or hired a trainer. They may have even had several trainers.  The common denominator between everyone is when I say, what skillset?

 

15:57

does your dog have to be successful outside? And people start telling me, well, he heals when we walk or he sits or she,  you know, whatever the case may, she waits before I let her out the door. I'm like, those are all obedience related things from your perspective. So take you away. What is your dog have out in the world? And I think people don't really even know what I'm asking or what I'm talking about. So that tells me that the general public really doesn't actually know.

 

16:26

what a dog needs in the context of its environment, because the environment is so different, right? So if you live in the city and you have a dog like that's heavy, heavy on the black mouth cur, you're going to be facing problems that you  simply cannot overcome because of their genetics. And I think a lot of times people will feel that plateau that you're feeling like they've done these things, but is this, is this the best that it's ever going to get? And the answer to that is I don't know.

 

16:55

I don't know because sometimes a dog, what they are, who they are, they cannot overcome the environment without tons and tons of human intervention, medicine,  all this management, all these things.  And some people are not equipped to do that, whether it's because they're not willing or they can't, or they don't have the resources or capacity to do it. So this is a big hot topic for me,  is particular breeds in the city.

 

17:25

But,  you know, a lot of us are born into a city and that may not be the right place for us. We may thrive more in the country or some of us maybe, you know, grew up in a little tiny town, but we really would have done better in a bigger school. Like, you know, you end up where you end up. So what can we do  when you're in a situation like this and you have a dog that's really not very compatible necessarily with the city? The first thing that stuck out to me was  when you talked about corn's kind of...

 

17:54

Enzo's the same way. I'm looking for the, there isn't really a phrase for it, but it's like the nature of a catch dog or the nature of a like a coon hound or something like that, where they kind of just want to be in the woods, roaming around. My boyfriend, he runs gundogs and he went out with Enzo and I one time and I said, what do you think? What do you think? What's it like? And he's like, he goes, it's like following an autistic person around in the woods with like no rhyme or reason.

 

18:23

because they're looking for things, they're not looking for birds or birds sent like bird dogs. They're not looking for, they're looking for what stimulates them and they wanna interact with it. And typically that means with mouth violence. That isn't like a quirky little trait of one of them. It's not like this sucks because they're like this. It's just what they were intended  and bred for. And so when you mix,

 

18:50

that a southern dog meant to run around in the woods, it's the same thing happens with catahoulas. I will see people in major cities with catahoulas and I'm like, do you know what that dog does? Wow, that's gonna suck for you guys.  And sometimes I think we just have to say that to people.  It's gonna suck. There is ways to improve that and it doesn't mean that you can't have a fun, meaningful life.

 

19:15

But there's,  it's very much like  if school wasn't built for you and you got to make it through school anyway, it's that same kind of thing. You can make it, you can do it, but it doesn't mean that we don't acknowledge  that this maybe isn't the best situation because then I think when you do,  it takes a lot of the pressure off to rise to the, to the level of golden retriever in suburb, you know, it's like, that's not what's going on here.

 

19:43

And so the expectations can be slightly different. I gonna ask if that means we're gonna pull corn out of school and homeschool him. That's it! We can't take this anymore! This is public school system!  That was an actual reenactment of something that I said.  What I was thinking about though was  the first thing that caught me was when you walk out of the door, just let a dog like that, don't put him in structure. A black mouthed cur would never have any interest in healing ever in its life.

 

20:12

And I can't ever see how it would benefit that dog ever. Now that doesn't mean  I don't move my dog closer to me for management when it's necessary for safety, you know,  just social appropriate  behavior, those kinds of things. It doesn't mean you let your dog do whatever. It means that this is the dog I have. So when I go outside with my dog, who's also is a catch dog. When I go outside with my dog, we don't, I'm just, we're just sniffing. He's, I'm not sniffing. I'm walking.

 

20:42

but he's just sniffing and he does that until he marks  several spots  and, and, and normally, and pees and poops. And then after that, it's time to get dialed in. Any dogs can learn any pattern that you present to them. It's better if you present them with a pattern that helps you get the job you want done. The job I'm always looking for is not whether my dog is perfectly next to me or it's, it's not obedience related. It's.

 

21:10

Am I managing my dog's nervous system? And is, do I feel confident? And then is he responsive to that management? If he is repeatedly not responsive to that management, I'm either up in a league I don't need to be in.  went up a weight class and oh crap, or  there could be something going on that day that  is just adding and he just can't overcome what that is in the environment.

 

21:40

or maybe there was a recent event, there's other things for that. So I'll stop talking so that someone else can talk, but those are just some of the things that I'm thinking about. I wanna kinda talk about what that might look like very specifically for us, Ruth, which is that one of the first things we're gonna do is create an inverted structure sandwich,  where we do not start with structure. The structure is the meat, not the bread. Totally different approach,  where we don't want our dogs to have to earn.

 

22:08

their fulfillment. We want to fulfill them and then ask higher expectations once we've met all their needs. It's a totally different switch. I think you and your dog will be less frustrated with  this inverted sandwich.  And for the person listening that may be asking this, oh, so you're just going to let them do whatever and then you're going to ask, well, aren't you reinforcing all these bad behaviors that you don't,  I rarely look at dogs through the lens of behavior.

 

22:37

The behavior is just this thing that's occurring. That's like a little barometer for me.  Yeah, it's like a little barometer for me to read or like a litmus test  or something like that. I never really think about it like that. I always think about my dog and like how much jazz is going on in there.  How much arousal is really happening? How much fear  is really happening? Because when you repeat patterns over and over and over that are successful that will help you, you'll notice that your dog will

 

23:06

start to kind of fall into that. And when they can fall into a successful pattern, that's where confidence grows.  That's where they don't, they're, not so focused on the novelty of the environment. They're more focused on completing this pattern that satiates this thing inside of them. Cause remember they're looking for stimulation that he can't help it.  I am also that kind of person. Right.  Like I'm like, Ooh.

 

23:35

Ooh, you know, I want to go check this out. want to go look at this. Yeah. Yeah. Curious. Yeah. So there's curiosity is wonderful, but it's a guided missile. got to be careful where it where it's aiming. So if you if you put it inside of a little inverted structure or a little funnel or whatever, a little sandwich, I guess, it's much more effective. So there are two two things that I want to.

 

24:01

talk about briefly that I think will be helpful for you Ruth and probably for the listeners out there.  One is related to exactly what you mentioned earlier  of there were times that you sensed that things had built up in corn until they  just exploded. We call that trigger stacking and that a thousand percent happens. That is a huge contributor to behavior and something to consider is when does that actually reset? And usually the nervous system does not fully reset until a good night's sleep.

 

24:30

And sometimes not even then,  on the extent of that dysregulation. Now, the other thing that I think is equally important here is looking at  what actually is this nervous system bucket. Because we have both good emotions, excitement, right? And not so good emotions, fear. They all dump into the same bucket. So if Corn sees a stranger pop out of nowhere and gets scared, and then maybe he...

 

24:55

sees a squirrel move and gets excited, right? Those two things stack on top of one another. And that's where we get, Jerry calls it the smearing of the emotions on the wall. Don't even know what they're feeling. They're just like, what? Yeah. And I tell Enzo all the time, what's going on? You're looking a little jazzy. Right. You're looking little jazzy. It's not because there's something wrong with him being jazzy. It's because it's a yellow light flashing Jerry. Jerry, if you don't...

 

25:24

manage this, we're going get into DEFCON 5 because that is an American bully.  It doesn't have anything to do with how I raised him or how nice he is or how cute his little face is.  Where is his internal state right now, right? This moment, the internal landscape of our dog's nervous system is one of the biggest drivers of behavior. And it sounds so clinical and

 

25:51

Dale, like we know that  if there was a funner name for nervous system management, like, you know, supercalifragilisticexpialidocious, we will send her the video that you made Jerry of the turn down for what sympathetic. So we make it fun around here. We do. We do make it fun. It's that's what we call it. It's the little John turned down  for what?  What was the, what was the parasympathetic song? What did I have?

 

26:16

Now I think it was just, think you were just being very contained and demure as they say.  then  I mean, what's in my head right now is Lionel Richie. So I'm not that.  Yes.  Yes. And I'm like, was it right away? Either way. That's we're going to have to take a look let you know. Yeah. If that helps the listener have some imagery there, I hope so. If you're a dog looks like they are in the line at the club.

 

26:44

you need to take action. they're getting back like that like look of like the head bob. Yeah, because once they go through the door, it's shot, shot, shot, shot, shot, shot. Yeah. Somebody's going home wasted and we don't want that. Yeah, like with the horn, I definitely like,  I definitely noticed that like sometimes we'll be walking and it's like, oh wow, he's so chill. And then I just see that like the brow goes and it just starts and then, and then it's like, oh, now he's.

 

27:11

now he's up straighter and the crowd's going even more. And I'm like, okay, there's something  I don't  see it. much more in tune with these little nuanced signs than I think the average pet parent would be.  And that is going to serve you so well, because we don't have to train your eyeballs to look for that. You already know his pre-triggers. And so all we're going to do is start inserting a slightly different intervention earlier on in those reactions. And you're going to have a completely different.

 

27:40

Completely different experience. I'm excited for you to just learn the power of movement  because  whenever I see people that have a lot of tools,  I feel like that is one of the big pillars that they haven't been introduced to.  The difference between, so we condition emotions, we train behaviors. I think that's one thing that they have no, because it's so behavior focused  in our industry.  Movement versus stillness.

 

28:08

That's another really big one. patterns, using patterns to your benefit. Because our dogs are using them against us all the time, right? All So it's about time we start using them to our benefit. Yeah, I like to think of dogs as like little autistic children that need really, that are like master pattern, like they're masters at picking up on patterns and they also thrive within pattern, you know? As a human, yeah. As an autistic human, that's me.

 

28:38

Like that's kind of how she like describes corn and like she sees the way that we like engage with him and all of this stuff that we like do with him and she's like, wow, you guys kind of have this, you know, child with a lot of needs that you have to. Yes. Or and I never like I didn't see it that way before because I was like, oh my God, yeah, we're just like managing this literal wild animal in our home. But then it's like that recognizing of like, oh, right. Yeah, he definitely has like in like.

 

29:06

Instinctual like deep needs that an ant like very specific to like him But also just like as an animal as a whole right like this is not a person. This is a dog Yeah, yeah, that's right Yeah and I mean to everyone listening like when when we talk about neurodivergency and people in the spectrum and it's it's with love like it's yes Like I'm clearly sitting on it. I'm clearly on it, you know

 

29:34

It's not to say, it's really to highlight the beauty of the brain and how you can interact with really multiple different species through patterns and compassion in your intention. can do so much. Thank you so much, Ruth, for coming on to talk about this. We will be working together over the next four weeks virtually, and then we're going to have you back on to talk about where things are at then. So exciting.

 

30:04

This has already been so  like refreshing and I'm feeling very excited for that. We are excited too.