Ep. 13 Transcript

Episode 13: Training With Accommodations

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00:04

Welcome to Unpacked, an open-minded podcast taking a clinical, not political approach to helping pet parents around the world. I'm Sailor Jerri, certified dog trainer, virtual dog training revolutionary, owner of Tulsa Pack Athletics and creator of The Open-Minded Approach. And I'm Mattison, her friend, certified dog trainer and behavior consultant. Together we have nearly three decades of experience in behavioral dog training.

 

00:28

We've been working with real dogs and the humans who love them to create solutions to problematic behaviors that feel too big for them to tackle on their own.

 

00:37

In this episode, we are fully unpacking a new case, diving deep into a behavioral topic that you, our listeners, asked for. If you're along for the ride, here's how it's gonna look. First, we'll introduce the incredible and dedicated humans we've been working with, and explain their intake process, while we describe their dog or dogs, and the behaviors they're experiencing. Then we'll walk you through our assessment and explain how we got there. Lastly, we'll break down the management and modification plan. If you're ready to dive into this unique

 

01:07

In any case, settle in with us and unpack.

 

01:13

Okay, Jerri, I am excited to finally get to talk about Julia and John and the beloved Scott. So excited that we could barely get through this intro. We couldn't decide how to say it. There was talk of glitters. So excited. Glitter is the obvious choice. Obvious comparison. It is. It's the obvious comparison. Glitter for Scott, glitter for Julia and John, just all around. And I think-

 

01:42

The reason is because Scott is very special. Um, he was in some kind of accident or had some kind of traumatic injury that made his life a little bit different than other dogs, but we're here to tell you that Scott is a perfect example of how dogs have no self-pity, they have incredible, incredible will to live. And so I hope everybody listens into this episode because it's inspiring and also very educational.

 

02:11

And we hope that you come back for the next episode where you actually get to hear us talking to Julia and John. And I think really a humbling moment for me, where I had just maybe thought that they were unicorns, right? And they reminded me that they aren't unique and that there's lots of people out there who have welcomed dogs with some type of physical limitation into their life. And, you know, that's a responsibility that they are happy to have. And what we got to talk about with them specifically were

 

02:41

What types of accommodations can we make to training plans in order to make it accessible for Scott? I did know about all of the special dog parents out there that are accepting animals into their home and loving them that have some kind of special need or limitation. But I've never been on the side of talking about their emotions and how they're living and transitioning from the day-to-day moments. So this was...

 

03:09

really, really interesting and special to me. And I was really excited to get to be a part of this because it wasn't something I felt like I got to experience before. So I think Jerri, the best place to start would be for you to explain a little bit about the specifics of Scott's injuries. Information that we have about Scott's injuries are that he was dropped off at the Orange County Humane Society. That's in North Carolina in Chapel Hill.

 

03:39

in 2021 under the name of Milo, my little boy's name is Milo, by his previous owner who stated that his legs had, and this is a quote, been weak since birth, end quote. So they did some x-rays on intake and there was a break in his thoracic spine. And for people that don't know your cervical spine, that's the part that's up by your neck, your thoracic spine. That's such the things you would commonly hear people say. And then right underneath that is the area of your thoracic spine.

 

04:08

And that's like basically your chest area all the way down to, you know, your abdomen. If you think about that in a person, you could kind of, kind of tilt that and think that that's, that's what it is for a dog too in general terms. I'm not a veterinarian. I'm just trying to help the listener understand what part of the spine we're talking about. Uh, that's helpful for me, you know, I come to me for physical and medical questions all the time, because that is something that you have, you know, couple years.

 

04:37

18 years experience. Yes, decent knowledge, some decent knowledge. Yeah. So they see that there is this break and the doctor at the time, the veterinarian at the time thought, okay, this is about two weeks old. It's healed a little bit. Um, and so Hope Animal Rescue pulled him out of the shelter, renamed him shade because he was throwing a shade with his face. He's a sick guy. Yeah. Immediately bringing the sass. From the time that he was pulled.

 

05:07

into rescue from the time that they adopted him was really just about two months. So whatever healing took place in that time allowed him to be able to find a home. And that's how he ended up with Julia and John. And oh my gosh, dog, he landed in a great, great home. It's true. It's the way that they talk about him. Like that's, that's what it is for me. It's not the fact that they care for him. Like that's, that's what, what you expect. It's the way that they talk about.

 

05:36

caring for him, that they feel honored and blessed to be able to be a part of his life and to be able to steward over him in that way. It was really touching. What was most touching to me about it is, and I get on to people all the time about Savior Complex, it's this weird Western thing that people do, and it's sewn into our culture. And so we all do it, I think, without knowing we're doing it. But that's not what they're doing.

 

06:06

There was, um, it's like he already has a light that's shining and they just wanted to help everyone see it. Like they're just kind of there to like, it was the same way that you talk about ends up. Yeah, they're trying to help him reach the potential that he has, that he's capable of with what he's got. They're trying to help him get to get there. And he's their best friend. Yeah, we can all learn from that. Like,

 

06:34

If that's your friend, that's your best friend, and you go to all the links for them. So that they can work with you. Without them being who they are and who they want to be. Yeah, it was really cool. He is such a cool dude. He's just this sassy, smart shepherd and goodness. He's just so able. And I'm so excited to see where we can kind of take this with some of the sensitivities that were.

 

07:03

trying to help them work through. But let's let's continue talking a little bit about the medical because I know there is a little bit more to talk about in relation to in depth grooming and physical care processes. So how did his injury affect sort of his more involved bathroom process? Like how if you could just help me understand maybe how that that damage

 

07:33

you know, impacted his bladder and his colon and things like that. His parents have explained it as Boz I incontinence. So let's just talk about incontinence really quick. What the incontinence is the inability to control your bowels or your bladder, and those are controlled by sphincters. We have them in our stomach and our bladder and our bowels. We've got them different places in our body. And that system is controlled by

 

08:02

our hormonal system. So just a general... Okay. Yeah, I mean, I don't... It's just kind of a general... So, with... There's a lot going on. Yeah, there's a lot going on there. Yeah. So... A lot of systems. Some dogs... Some dogs will have incontinence because there's something going on hormonally, and there's nothing else wrong with them, but they can't hold their bladder. So there's different meds that they have supplemented, and then they aren't incontinent anymore, but they have to take those for the rest of their life.

 

08:31

There's different things that can cause that. Some dogs have a traumatic injury and they lose feeling and that's why they can't control those sphincters anymore. There are some dogs that will have that kind of traumatic injury and they have some feeling to the extent that they can hold it in, but they can't go on their own. And this is what's the same. So what they've explained is that he's not leaving little turds all over the house every day. He'll have a bowel movement.

 

09:00

just like a help expressing that bowel movement. So it will all come out, he'll have his poop, you know, and then he goes about his day. And then there's, you know, some dogs that that's not what they're experiencing and they have incontinence all the time and they have to wear diapers or something like that. So it just depends on what their traumatic injury was and how the recovery, really not what the injury was really, it's more I think, what the recovery is like. And do you think his, well, I mean, it was my assumption, but

 

09:28

know, his young age at the time of that injury has a big impact on that. What do you mean? Do you mean on the way he was able to recover or? Yeah. Or maybe on the, yeah, yeah, on the ability to recover with him being young. Does that, does that make it more likely to rebound? Does it impact the recovery at all? I think the dogs have to really just depend. Yeah, I think the dogs have a really strong will to live. And so if they have an injury that's debilitating, but that doesn't kill them.

 

09:56

they will learn to survive with that injury period. They don't have, they could just have the knowledge that they need to continue to live and seek resources that help them stay alive. Really could point. That's why their brain is bigger than ours. The part of their brain that- The survival instinct. See for willpower, yeah, it's larger than ours is. And one of the only real, I don't know, I guess, asks from John and Julia.

 

10:24

maybe related specifically around the injury was they just identified that there are ways in which it's easier to read a dog that does have full body movement and they had spent a lot of time studying Scott's ears and were just looking for more strategies to be able to have him communicate with them as clearly as possible and so I thought that that was just a really it's going to be a really fun journey to get to teach Scott.

 

10:54

a new system of communication with them to express what he's feeling. Everybody think about that for a minute. What would happen that the people that have dogs that have dog tails, they're like, you know, what would happen? Or the skipper keys, the skipper key owners are like, hi, my dog doesn't even have a tail, the Frenchie owners, the Boston owners. Yeah. What would it be like if you couldn't tell what your dog was feeling?

 

11:20

or how to read, you know, that was missing from the body language, that was missing from the overall, would you be able to tell what was going on? I just, man, I use the tail so much. So I always like gents that have their tail. Because I think it's just such an emotive art of who they are. And I know that that's, you know, a separate topic. But you know, if you if it's not there, or it doesn't work, because of whatever reason,

 

11:49

You have to learn to compensate in other areas and pay attention to other areas a little more closely. In this particular case where Scott needs a little scrub, a little wash up, you know, frequently. A little scrub. Due to his potty routines, and that's not a very pleasant experience for him. And it's a rather involved process for John and Julia. And really, again, they're sort of, they're asked.

 

12:19

or their concern or what they really came to us to address is, you know, there are moments where they feel like he's not okay emotionally with what's going on and they want to do what they can to change that or to start to change that. And the BALTH routine is something that, you know, honestly, they have got that down to a system, to a science, and we're going to look at a couple of areas to maybe do some desensitization or counter conditioning, but overall they have that.

 

12:47

really, really down and where we're going to spend some time is on the other kind of more cooperative care activities that we can create a separate routine where Scott gets to kind of opt in. Because one thing that we identified, you know, a huge form of communication in cooperative care training is the opt out. Is it all being allowed to stand up and walk away as a part of the process, right? So we can certainly do some activities with Scott in his wheels because our

 

13:17

Our boy likes to move when he is in his wheels. But I don't know that he would necessarily want to be still long enough for a cooperative care routine when he's, you know, scooted up like that. So I think that what we have, and I guess I'm getting a little bit ahead, but what we've talked about doing in a way of creating communication channels for Scott is having that select button, having an opt in and not starting the process until he opts in. And because Scott is.

 

13:46

just just so bright and loves to learn and loves to engage. He knows all kinds of hues around his face and his head, his little snoot and his little chin, his little boop and his little you know so I think we have lots of options to be able to work with there and it's gonna be like I said I think a fun journey to get to build these just new frameworks for communication for them that are really unique and specific. If you can't say no and you can't move that's

 

14:15

pretty traumatizing for a lot of people. For multiple reasons. That's traumatizing for a lot of animals for multiple reasons. None of them are good. You know, so we have to start talking about that this is a reality for our dogs. There are things they don't wanna do that they're terrified of doing them. And we're just like, must! You know, it's just, it's not that we just stop doing this stuff. Oh, your nails trimmed. Well, that seems a bit extreme. That's swinging a little too far.

 

14:44

It's how can we learn? Yeah. How can we teach cooperation? How can we elicit cooperation with them so that there's not this disconnect between going forward? And we're going to come back to the specifics of creating these routines when we get into the modification plan and how we plan to create and then preserve a cooperative routine while also

 

15:12

simultaneously still getting his nose trimmed and still doing what we need to do for his day-to-day care because, you know, it's not exactly something that, you know, you want to put off. And if there is a good system in place to get it done, there's no reason that that has to stop. I think a really important consideration with cooperative care is that we use it for tasks where the answer can be no. And if the answer cannot be no, then you simply don't ask. That would be things like, you know, medical care.

 

15:38

Yeah, I'm working on that with a few of my clients right now. One of the dogs is scared of the car. Well, guess what? Sometimes we got to get in the car and go somewhere. So we don't go the procedure that we're doing for cooperative care. We don't go through all those steps and then put the, and then put their dog in the car because that's, that's big ton lying. And then you just don't have, and you just go. It's a completely different process. Yeah. Yep. It's really like management at that point. Yeah. There were a couple of other things that.

 

16:07

seemed to really stress Scott out. Scott is a very sound sensitive dude, which when we were unpacking their plan with them, we got pretty into that that likely came from his other limitations and the fact that he took in so much of his information through observation, because he wasn't physically interacting with the world in the same way as another dog would. And so his hearing is potentially, and I think that his behavior is kind of

 

16:36

show that that's a high possibility that he has even stronger hearing than an average dog. And because of that, things like fireworks and gunshots are absolutely terrifying. And he has a particular fear of things being cut on the cutting board, which has, again, with these bright, smart dogs and their pattern recognition, he's now figured out, well, that drawer has the knife. And when they reach for the chopping board after that drawer, that's all it takes.

 

17:04

for him to absolutely lose his mind. He knows the drawer in the refrigerator where the peppers come out of versus the cheese. The cheese drawer is safe. The pepper drawer is not safe. And he absolutely panics and that's something that they just really didn't want to see and want to find a way to create something a little bit smoother for him and not have to feel like they are shutting him off in another room and just hiding him away from things but actually stepping into something a little bit different.

 

17:32

a little bit more sustainable. Let's look at some of the goals that they had for Scott. In their own words, the things that they really wanted to do. And the number one thing was to really again, understand his body language and just know what he wants and needs and be able to have him communicate that. Cause they're listening, you know, they're, what do you want? What do you need? What can we do for you? And they want to just be able to get a little bit more response back that they can understand at least. Add a little bit of a

 

18:02

language and get to know what they want and need. I think many of the people that I work with definitely come in wanting to understand their dog better. But this is a particular case where John and Julia were just feeling limited by, you know, the lack of information that they felt like they were getting from half of this body. I agree. Another we're going to call short-term goal because it's something that we really wanted to tackle.

 

18:30

first before we moved on to some other things is his food motivation seemed a little bit finicky. So we have been and we'll continue to dig into that and see. We've talked through diet switches, we've talked through maybe using an appetite stimulant, we've talked through a couple other possibilities. So we're going to continue to work through a solution there. And the reason that is such a key first step is because two of their other goals are to solidify recall because specifically...

 

19:00

When Scott got his first set of wheels, he just went in the middle of the road. And so it's something that they just... I don't know how it ain't. He takes the freedom and he was going to just see where the road could take him. And they like weren't... No! He was like, what did you give them to me for then? If not for this, what? Yeah. And it's like, I thought I was supposed to be moving around.

 

19:29

And they want him to have so much freedom. So they really want a way to be able to bank the reps needed to have a strong, classically conditioned recall. Like that's, that's an understandable priority for when he's on his wheels because having a long line attached to that, not entirely practical. No, no, probably actually pretty treacherous. Yeah. I mean, I think it would be cool to see somebody build some sort of thing that came up and that-

 

19:57

like a drag line that came behind. Saying if anybody's out there that wants to engineer and patent something like that for dogs like Scott's. Extendo. The go go gadget. The go go gadget extendo. That would be so cute. Scott would be the first one. Let us know. Whole market for you. And another goal that they had was around crate comfort. And this was for a very specific reason. And I think that this is really important to talk about because

 

20:27

I kind of went through a very similar thing with my dog, and I know that we're not alone in that. And the reason they wanted Scott to be comfortable in the crate was not because he's crated in their house. He's not in the kennel. He doesn't need to be. My dog isn't either. There's no instance, no reason for him to be in the kennel. But there are other instances in his life where he has to be in a kennel. Our particular one was we were conditioning a car kennel for travel, and we needed him to be comfortable for potentially long car rides and long periods of time in that kennel.

 

20:56

Now for Scott, it's more specific to when he boards because he boards at a vet facility because of his specific routines, he needs people who are more equipped to care for him. And he's gonna be kenneled during that process and they just know that that's not something that's entirely comfortable for him because it's not something that's normal for him. And they have a desire to have some continuity for when they aren't there to make that an easier process for him. So we are looking into the specifics of where he's actually boarded.

 

21:26

and looking at the style of kennel that they use and, you know, really trying to create as much similarities as we can. And then we're going to be doing some conditioning and just over time, because there's no urgent rush here, we're just going to be helping them feel a little bit differently about the kennel. I'm going to tell you guys right now that if you choose not to use a kennel, that's totally up to you. Totally fine. I don't have one in my house even right now. But my dog knows how to use a kennel because I'm terrified that something's going to happen to him and it has.

 

21:56

something's gonna happen to him and he's gonna have to go to the hospital and it would be the first time that he had to use a kennel or he didn't know what was going on and that he would think that he was injured and trapped in some prison and had no idea what that was and why those people were putting him in that box it just it's too much for me I can't. So I remember when he had his foreign body surgery the techs were like he just always goes right into his kennel

 

22:25

He's so good. He's quiet during the day. And then that way his body can heal. And he's not like that the entire time he's in the hospital because he's not crate trained. So just consider it, consider it. And we have a free crate course on that. Yeah. Told you. If you, if your dog is not crate trained, Mattison wrote that course. Steph. Team Dove with two other trainers. And it is very comprehensive, no matter how old your dog is.

 

22:54

And I'll tell you that I've every single one of my clients takes that course. And I don't even remember the last time I had to really even help them with crate training or just like, Oh, look at this. It's working. I'm like, you don't say, no, I can't say enough good things about that course. And, you know, this is actually my reminder for myself to pull out a wire kernel and practice with Remy because he actually is getting a dental procedure next month, and I want him to not wake up from his anesthesia.

 

23:24

you know, very, very drowsy and be in such an unknown situation. I want that to be very comfortable for him. I ask you like a totally off topic vet tech question. If I were to send my dog in for a procedure with a blanket, is that appropriate to like have something put in within his kennel that's familiar? Or is that potentially dangerous to introduce germs? So no, I wouldn't worry about the germs because it's only going to go, go in post-op. So they will bring that to you. They'll.

 

23:53

you'll bring it and then just say, hey, when my dog's in recovery, can you use this blanket? Or can you put this blanket in there? I'm afraid they have a nurse with them all the time because they have to be extubated. They have to have their vitals monitored and things like that before they go back in a kennel that will be their recovery kennel. So that's where that blanket would be. So no, as long as they are in the practice of putting little beds in there, which they should be for comfort.

 

24:21

It's a fear free practice. I'm super happy with this vet clinic. Oh, that's good. Then yeah, you just ask if your dog can have that post-doc. Um, and that'd be like, Oh, sure. And they'll board and you just make sure that you ask for it when you come back to pick up for me. Okay. Perfect. That was really good advice. Thank you. You know, I don't want to be like a dog mom, but I wanted to have something comfortable and familiar. Already know, would they come in and I'm like, Nope, we're not.

 

24:50

You know, no, I'm that dog mom. Excellent, well now I can confidently be that dog mom. You can. And you can always set boundaries and be kind. You can always, when I set a firm boundary, I thank people in advance for respecting it and for upholding that for me. And then we don't generally have to talk about it much after that. People wanna be a part of something. They don't wanna be told what to do and bossed around, but they wanna help. Yeah, absolutely.

 

25:18

looking at some of the longer term goals and I guess only longer term because this is something that we have to work on some of these other things first and get the food motivation and learn to communicate with him and things like that but really helping him manage those those overall fears and not just loud sounds right also medium sounds he's he's he's definitely a sensitive boy and building up his confidence and I don't know that we used this

 

25:42

race with them, but it's something that's been very top of mind for me with some of my clients. But I think building the resilience as well, the response to that stress, the response to that fear and the recovery. That's something I actually, when I was very into running for a short period of time, when you're looking to improve your overall speed for an upcoming race, you don't just bump up the speed of your whole run, you do sprints. And what you're actually focused on is the recovery time in between those sprints.

 

26:11

It's not about how fast are those sprints. It's how fast can you get your breath back in between them and then do another one. And I think that that's something I use with my clients with reactive behavior is, okay, well, first we need to learn how to recover and how to regulate. And then we can talk about actually, actually shrinking that eyeball. That's such a great analogy for people that are like, I just don't get why this is happening. Well, that's because your dog is trigger stacking and has no time to recover in between each individual thing.

 

26:41

And this sounds like a good deal. But when you put a whole bunch of sprints back to back, when you put a whole bunch of triggers back to back, you have to be able to recover between them. And as you practice more and more, just like Mattison's saying, that recovery time becomes faster, and then you can handle all their distance faster, more triggers over a shorter period of time. Yeah. You know, I had a client right now who, who was actually trigger stacking both good and bad emotions in a single walk.

 

27:10

Think about vanilla too. Right, because I'm so descriptive of my own personality. I mean, sometimes they all get thrown in the same pot, right? And they all just get mixed up and it's like, I don't know what I'm feeling, but I'm up here. I'm at a nine. And you know, in his case, it's specific to excitement, maybe to see people and then prey drive, seeing a bunch of deer. But then he sees a big dog, which is scary. So now he's got a fear response and it's all stacking together because it's all nervous system is regulation.

 

27:40

Yep. I think those dogs are generally dogs that are candidates for medication. I'm just gonna throw that out there. I'm not saying it as a blanket term. I think each case is individual, but when you have a dog that's feelings are so layered and complicated like that and they literally cannot, I mean, what are you going to do? Stop the world? Never take them outside? Nothing? I mean, it's just, that's a different side. For me, this is where I actually look at that recovery time for the good feelings. If-

 

28:08

That is where I look first. If they cannot recover from the good emotions in an isolated event, if they're that dysregulated, then we don't even have somewhere to start. Okay. And that's when I normally take a step back and say, we probably need to bring somebody else into this conversation, because I don't think that we're at a baseline where we can really learn. Yeah, it happens. It doesn't happen often to me that it happens. I normally have- That one happened often. Normally, once we start to work on that,

 

28:38

that like recovery rate and that regulation. Normally once we start to work on that in the absence of the stress and we learn the skills, we're able to translate it. But when you can't even learn the skills, in a happy, exciting, positive environment that is not stressful, yeah, that's when we look at potential medication intervention. The last thing on their list was the separation anxiety. And this is something that really what stood out to them.

 

29:07

And this goes back to something that we were just talking about. And we've, we've talked about before when we have really, really smart dogs is their ability to pick up on this, this, this pattern recognition is Scott has, he, he is just so many steps ahead of them in terms of knowing when they are thinking about getting ready to leave. He has figured out the trigger before the trigger before the trigger to know what is the first step of their getting ready to leave the house routine. And that now has stress of its own.

 

29:36

That's what happens with these, what we call pre-departure cues in the world of separation anxieties that they take on stress of their own. This is through the exact same power that we can create the positive association of our marker words. Our marker words, if it's followed by a payment so many times, that marker becomes a secondary reinforcer, becomes a positive emotion for our dog. Well, when they see you grab your keys...

 

30:03

that could do the same thing in a negative way, because it's been paired with you leaving so many times that it holds its own stress. Really talking them through what it looks like to pull apart those pre-departure cues and trying to get a couple steps ahead and helping them feel a little bit differently about those triggers before the triggers. I have to jump in and say something bitchy. I don't really think it's bitchy. I just think that it's definitely intense. I think, but I want it. I want it.

 

30:33

people to listen to what I'm saying and really, really take it in. A lot of people, and this has nothing to do with anything Julie or John have done or said, but I see it in Scott, and so I want to use him as an example. People will say, it will have this issue with their dog, with what Mattison just described, these pre-departure cues, and they'll say things like this, Oh my god, my dog is just so smart. Okay, well, yes. Your dog is-

 

31:00

really great at pattern recognition, reading your body language and being in tune with that. That's what's happening. When we say it like that, an accountability that has to happen there, because we're just saying the thing, you know, that our dog is good at, but we're recognizing what they're good at. When we say something like, oh, they're just so smart, I don't know, they pick up on everything, and throw our hands up in the air, it makes it, now it's the dog's problem for being too damn smart.

 

31:28

you know, and there's nothing I can do, and they're just gonna catch on. That's not true. What's generally happening is the dogs, if you wanna quantify the intelligence, the place that it is is in pattern recognition. And so that takes us stepping in, and again, referring back to what you said, Mattison, is breaking down those pre-departure cues and working on each step. But we have to do something. We can't just be like, oh, my dog's just really smart.

 

31:58

And then that's the end of it. So of course, Julie and John were not doing that. They were recognized that his intelligence is in many areas and that's one of them. In looking at their plan, there was pretty much no changes needed to their management. They had everything really well in place and there weren't any situations that were unmanageable.

 

32:21

Um, we did break things down into stages for them. So again, really having this ongoing stage of learning to read Scott a little bit better and creating some new channels of communication, starting with building a student motivation and working through some of the desensitization with the sounds. Moving on to some cooperative care and grooming and solidifying the recall. And then finally moving on to some of the separation anxiety and the crate comfort and specifically those pre-departure cues. Modification plan that was a little bit more complex.

 

32:50

Or the crate comfort, and we haven't started this process yet, but once we get the information about maybe what type of kennel he's kept in the vet clinic, being able to replicate that as best we can, I think we will have to get a little bit creative about how are we having that opt out and opt in for something like this? How are we creating patterns that allow for cooperative engagement? So I think there will be more to come on that.

 

33:20

We are going to build channels of communication. We are going to increase his food drive. We're going to do some counter condition and desensitization of things that stress him out. And then we're going to build some really unique patterns for him to be able to opt into things that are going to be a part of his everyday life. And they just want him to feel better about. For me, that's what his plan kind of boils down to for where we're working right now. Knowing that the separation anxiety is not something that is actually impacting them all that often.

 

33:48

but they do want to have that kind of on the horizon as something that we'd like to continue to work towards. But really starting with like the everyday stress and de-stressing those moments that are unavoidable and they just don't wanna have to just hide him away from them. Something like folding laundry and, you know, kind of whipping a piece of clothing to be able to fold it. Yeah, that's a really stressful night for him. And we actually talked about specifically with sound triggers like that,

 

34:18

where there's one volume with which we whip, right? Like if you were to just sort of lightly whip it, it wouldn't really make the noise. And how can we do desensitization to something that is like a one volume thing? And what we discussed was taking a sound recording or going to YouTube and actually finding a clip and then taking it down to volume one. And now we have the bit.

 

34:43

Lightly whip it. That's a very good point because it produces different sounds, the air comes out of the shirt different. All those little tiny things matter to dogs. We don't think about them because we have all these other things we're thinking about. They're thinking about what's going on in the room that they're in right then. So lightly whip it. That's the lesson for today. Whip it real good. But only after property sensitization. Correct.

 

35:12

Now for recall, we just sent them to your recall course, which is honestly what I do with most of my clients at this point anyway, and I made a point to talk about this on my stories because somebody asked me what my least favorite thing to teach to honors is and I said recall, because it's gotten boring to me. My dog is going to live his life on a drag line. He has all the freedom in the world with that least dragon behind him and I feel better and it's safer for us.

 

35:38

For most of the clients that I work with, recall is not really a part of the overall goal. Most of us were working through some, you know, pretty difficult behaviors and trying to create a more harmonious life together. And if recall is part of it, then you have a fantastic resource for that. And I should send them there. And then the focus starts our time when they want like true behavior change and emotional change. Because recall is just about getting in your reps, classic conditioning.

 

36:07

Right. Having that just like, oh, beautifully, just secure hue that will bring your dog back to you no matter what. And it takes discipline to get in the reps and it's a use it or lose it. You stop practicing it. It stops working. That's just what it is. Yep. And I can, that most, and I know you do, so I send them right to you. Cause it's not important to me. And it's the same with the crate. I hate teaching the crate. I hate it. So I have a crate course that I can refer people to. You have a-

 

36:38

If it's something that you are doing over and over and over and over and over just as a dog trainer, make a course for it. Put your effort into it. Make that as a resource for each and every client that comes across your path so that they all have access to the same thing. And then they get that individual, unique experience working one-on-one with you. That's what we mean when we say get creative with your delivery system, because Barry and I both think that.

 

37:06

Bob Trainer's time is really valuable and shouldn't be spent hours a day driving around. It should be spent in the community. And studying and yeah, working and doing the things that... Sometimes crying, you know, sometimes... Definitely crying. Sometimes with our clients, sometimes on our own. That's right. Yeah, there, yeah. Sometimes when you see dogs like Scott, oh, he's a gem. He's a real gem. He really is.

 

37:34

And I'm looking forward to getting into the cooperative care with them because we very specifically are working up towards some nail grinding. We already have fluency in several cues that we can choose from for a start button. And he seems to really like resting his little face in a hand. He's like, here, hold this. So I think we're going to have a really good time building up. You know, there's a lot of

 

37:59

maybe not a lot of debate, but there is debate around the word consent versus cooperation. And I think what is important in this type of routine and the reason that the word consent probably does ring true for a lot of people, even if that isn't the case for everyone, is because it's creating a system of informed consent, which is more of a legal term. And so I understand that that doesn't really totally apply to dogs. But the idea is that you're going so slowly and you're showing them at each step.

 

38:28

what you're about to do and giving them the chance to say no and teaching them how to do that. That involves even before they say no, saying no for them and creating an opt-out and reinforcing that. And it seems so counterintuitive, but that's an important first step. And that's why I think cooperative care and creating these informed consent routines is really important in this type of training and in allowing dogs to feel differently about routines

 

38:58

are part of their everyday life. Cooperative care is not just for dogs. It's for multiple species and I've been really working on that with. Old drop dead Fred, the billy goat, some of you know I have. What have you been doing with him? I don't know about this. All everything that I do with Fred is all, he has to, it's just clip structure, pattern, and he has to opt into it otherwise. I thought you meant you were doing like a new grooming routine.

 

39:27

Like, where you like, clipping his hoods or filing his little head. Laila does all the grooming and she does not do cooperative care with them. I would say that she... Well, no, maybe it's cooperative, but it's not informed consent. He cooperates for the snacks. Um, but yeah, the big- Goats don't learn the same way as dogs. They don't. And the bigger and more unruly species is bigger and or more unruly. You really can't just-

 

39:56

force them to do things or make them do things. You know, especially with JB, my horse, well, my daughter's horse, excuse me, you know, the horse that I pay for. The horse that I pay for to go clean his poop. And he's great and I love it, but it's cool because you can start to see how there's a difference between making something do something and getting, you know, a thousand pound animal to cooperate with you out of choice. It feels different.

 

40:26

And then so I know planning as much as I can to dogs. I was inspired originally to really go down the cooperative care rabbit hole because you and I don't ever like dip our toe into anything. It's like, well, you're in. It's full on Alice. Alice down the rabbit hole. Way down. So for me, it was, um, and I don't remember the zoo, but it was a zoo and it was a tiger. And they had taught the tiger who needed to get regular blood draws to

 

40:56

give them his paw for blood draws or snackies. And it honestly rocked my world. I was like, but we can do this with dogs. And it just changed everything for me. Yeah, Enzo will stand there and let you draw blood out of his jugular vein. He used donated blood, hasn't he? Oh yeah, yeah, multiple times for multiple dogs that needed blood transfusions. Amazing. That's something that I don't think there's a lot of awareness about.

 

41:25

Yeah, and your dog, if you have a big dog, your dog could be a donor. Normally it's somebody within the hospital. There's, you know, everybody, it's just easier that way. You have the clea, but fun fact, yeah. Yeah, well, I think it was awesome going through this plan and I'm really looking forward to building these really, like I said, just unique patterns for Scott and getting to partner more with Julia and John to help them just understand their bud better. Yeah, it's great. And I'm just hopeful that everyone that listens can take this.

 

41:55

as an inspirational episode, that it doesn't matter what your dog's limitations are. They still deserve and can, you know, through you have access to a really great quality of life that's just right for them. Absolutely.

 

42:14

Unpacked was created by Jerri Sheriff and Mattison Simpson, edited and produced by Josh Wasta under the supervision of Straight Up Dog Talk, LLC and Emily Reslin. If you are enjoying this podcast, follow or subscribe to be sure you don't miss an episode and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Looking for more honest and relatable dog content? Check out our sister podcast, Straight Up Dog Talk. See you next time.