AN OPEN-MINDED PODCAST.
Ep. 14 Transcript
Episode 14: unPACK Session (Julia)
​​
00:00
This episode of Unpacked is brought to you by the Complex Canine Community, a supportive space for owners of complex and complicated dogs. This is a truly one-of-a-kind space in the dog world. Jess Adam, licensed therapist and coach with a passion for helping the human side of the leash, helps guardians and trainers work through the very real emotions of working with big feeling dogs, drawing from proven clinical psychotherapy techniques. In this community, you'll have access to discussion threads, a resource library,
00:30
professionally-led monthly support calls, and opportunities for community connection. You can use code unpackedpod, that's U-N- to get a month free when you join the Complex Canine community. Go to Comp or click the link in the show notes and use code unpackedpod for a free month.
00:58
Welcome to Unpacked, an open-minded podcast taking a clinical, not political approach to helping pet parents around the world. I'm Sailor Jerri, Certified Dog Trainer, Virtual Dog Training Revolutionary, owner of Tulsa Pack Athletics and creator of The Open-Minded Approach. And I'm Mattison, her friend, certified dog trainer and behavior consultant. Together we have nearly three decades of experience in behavioral dog training.
01:22
We've been working with real dogs and the humans who love them to create solutions to problematic behaviors that feel too big for them to tackle on their own. In this episode, we are giving you a peek into our worlds and minds, following through on our promise to add transparency to this industry. This is your chance to listen in as we fully unpack a case plan with one of our incredible guests. You will hear a breakdown of specific suggestions and protocols that are given at the start of a training program.
01:50
You will also hear every question our insightful and inquisitive guests toss at us. If you're looking for a glimpse behind the scenes of detailed training plan conversations, settle in with us and unpack.
02:04
Awesome, we are so excited to have this time to meet with you both, go through the plan that we came up with for Scott, really just admire the awesome individual that he is and get to kind of brag on you two because we were both, I don't even know that impressed is the right word. We were texting like, they're amazing, they're incredible, they're unicorns, people don't exist like this. You guys just have-
02:34
There are so many that do that. Like we, weirdly enough, like we have a huge special able dog following and we are followers of so many other dogs there, just like Scott, like the same. I love that. I feel like that's, that's something that we need to learn is that there, that there are more of you out there that are willing to take on project dogs. Is that like a fair, a fair like, Like follow, Yeah.
03:04
Yeah. I saw a lot of people like you in VetMed that were quietly behind the scenes. And so, yeah, I think that's a really important statement to make is we're just a representation of a big community. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I love that. Yeah. Oh, that's so important. You're right. Cause that's not, it's not a community or an area that I'm exposed to a lot. I think I more see the opposite of the dogs that are seeking homes that are
03:31
struggling with physical disabilities or behavior concerns, things like that. So I think that it's really that is such a message of hope for me to take away from this is like that you're not unicorns, that you are not the exception, that there are lots of people out there willing to take on dogs that need a lot of accommodations, which is you know what Scott's life is. So I guess before we kind of go into the plan and go through some of the sections that we
04:01
you know, provided for you. Kind of just wanted to hand it over to you and see if there's any questions or any sort of thoughts or takeaways from the plan or our approach to help you guys out with Scott. No, the only question, sorry, I'm looking at my list on my phone. That's what I have to, I've got it all up on my phone too. It's okay. That's how we do it too. Yeah, like I'm not looking at like Instagram. We didn't know what CC and SA stood for. Thank you. I'm so sorry.
04:28
Yeah, CC is counter conditioning. So that means that's something we're gonna try and change how he feels. So create brand new emotions. And that process is actually through neuroplasticity and creating, I think I used that word right, and then creating new neural pathways through positive associations to things. And that's where we have an existing emotion about something where we couldn't just do desensitization, right? Like with the cutting board.
04:57
we have to counter condition the heck out of that and create some new associations. And SA is separation anxiety. And I apologize, that's me just being a, nah, just going on the keyboard a little too quick. But this is so great for people that are listening because they'll see stuff written in social media captions and they'll not have the right person to ask to have a relationship with someone to ask those questions. So I hope people are listening. The terms aren't as complicated once you break them down. Yeah.
05:26
That's perfect. I think that was for the most art or only question, everything else stands. Like we don't know exactly what we're going to do, but the framework there makes perfect sense. Okay, perfect. So let's kind of start at the goals section, Jerri, and we'll work our way down through that. And I think that this is a really important activity for trainers and baby consultants to be doing with clients that I don't know that they are doing as much, where we really are...
05:55
prioritizing our goals based on, I tend to use this like business management framework where you're kind of creating a matrix of importance and urgency, right? And like there are things that maybe are important but they're not urgent. We have to tackle things that have a high level of urgency first. Obviously, we never want to be working in the urgency zone, but in order to sort of move out of that, we need to tackle the items that are in that zone first.
06:25
I think one of just having an ongoing goal is getting to know Scott better. And this is where his physical limitations make it hard to read him. And so I think just any time you have a moment where it's like, what the heck is he trying to tell me? You pull out the phone, you film it, and then that's something where Jerri and I can literally break it down for you. And you know, especially with the context clues of what's happening and things like that, we're going to be able to, you know, hopefully come up with some better understanding there. But then I think the...
06:53
The first short-term goal has to be sort of working on the food motivation there because some of the other goals really rely on us having that drive. So starting there, I think made sense to me. And working on the recall, I know was very important to you. There were some safety concerns. I did do a little snort laugh when you said the first time you put him in his wheels, he was just gone. He was just in the middle of the street. Who's that? Who's on out? Right in the street. Straight in the public.
07:22
Sorry, I know where you're going with all of them. Oh, it's funny, like you wouldn't think, I have a disabled dog and I need him to have good recall, but like in those situations... I like it. You need him. Yeah, yeah, like he puts his wheels on and he's in the same... his mind is not any different than any other. You get him to where he's physically in the same realm as that other dog, and he's just gonna behave like any other dog. You know, dogs don't have the capacity for self-pity like human beings do.
07:51
It's great. It's one of my favorite things about him. Angelia explains that to pretty much anybody that we come across that gives the, aww, he's like, well, look at him. He's happy. He doesn't care. Yeah. Very good. I like that. I love that too. Well, Phil Babs bring up, he has a great life. Yeah, he does. He is well cared for. And he has quite nice. Yeah. He has lots of hobbies and lots of activities. His finance made in an FDA approved facility. I don't even get my fees.
08:21
Yeah, right, right. A lot of our dogs eat better than us. I don't know if that's a good sign, but and then I know the crate comfort is important to you just because that's something that is going to be and this is where I think we we could look at that exact goal as super low urgency but high importance because it's something that every time he boards it's causing him stress so it's something that you it's very important to you.
08:46
to help them feel better about, but it's not immediately urgent. You know, it's on the short-term goals list because it's something that takes quite a long time when you do it the right way. So we want to be able to have very, very easy and low pressure exercises and be able to really gradually work up to that, again, because there's no urgency. So we don't need to go any faster than Scott's comfortable with. And I think we're gonna have to be really intentional and get a little bit creative with that because of...
09:13
you know, looking at maybe how he's entering the kennel in a vet boarding setup versus in a home and trying to not train him for something that's not part of his life, right? Like being kenneled in the home is not part of his life. Being kenneled in a vet boarding setting is. So trying to really mimic that as best we can. And it never really occurred to me, even asked him what does it look like for him when he's here, which makes me feel bad now that I say that out loud, but it never.
09:43
Like I didn't think I need to get it the same or a similar set up as I can get. So that if he is bored at the vet, he knows what to expect. And it's not this thing that happens every three or four months, six months of art. Got like he spends a week there, then he's freaked out the whole time. Like, you would have no way of knowing, you know, that that would be, you know, her, and maybe it isn't all that different from the routine that you have. Maybe with his.
10:11
mobility, they have a very kind of simple setup in one of the rooms. But I think it's definitely worth asking. That way we know for sure and we're not having to guess. Okay. So let's get into the long-term goals. And I think this one is probably for me, even though it's classified with the long-term goals, I think this is of the highest importance because of the amount that it impacts him with the stress. And this is his like overall fear responses, especially to sounds. So can you think of maybe in the last
10:41
day or two, any sort of big fear response or episodes he's had with his sound sensitivity. You were c- He'd uh, chopped up onions like two nights ago I think. And he'll- Fajitas night is like his worst, his worst nightmare. No fajitas. No taco Tuesday. It's a crackling blo- A crackling blo- No chopping. Chopping, chopping, chopping. Yeah, Zephyr's at an additional sound lead. Okay, okay. He came the night out of the nightblock. He knows that sound. Yeah, and he associates that now.
11:10
He knows which cabinet, why does the keyboard sit in open other cabinets? Fine. He knows like, I don't know if they can. Smart. One of the greatest. So smart pattern. Yeah, exactly. He's a genius. Like this dog is like, wait, sorry. I know. And this is why it's not surprising to us, or at least to me, I don't want to speak for you, Jerri. I was not surprised to hear that he was displaying signs of separation anxiety at the
11:38
Earliest indicator that you would be potentially leaving the house Yeah, that to me even chess pieces around in his head. He's like I'm 16 moves ahead. You guys are leaving nobody knows In it that I noticed that you're leaving Yes, well literally yes, so I don't lazy. I work from home. I stay in my pajamas all day I put new pajamas on at the end of the day. I put these gloves on lovely. I put this Full it is all he was on high alert because these are not my pajamas
12:07
add the same pojama like I look the same I'll wear a white t-shirt and a pair of sweats the sleeve that looks like this is not a white t-shirt it's not the uniform this is not the uniform oh he's like you're not in ass clothes you're about to leave oh my god shoes depending on the pair of shoes like if I put on tennis shoes I'm probably leaving but if I'm putting on boots I'm just going out to the barn to work and if it's boots he's like all right dude see ya or can I come with you like it's not a
12:37
Oh my God, you're bleeding and I'm trying to scratch to get to the door. It's a good one. You guys Enzo has it down to a science almost to what temperature it is. What the temperature is like outside, whether or not he'll come with me or not. Because he just know what I'm going to do. Yeah. The more there, I think what we're seeing is intelligence in dogs. And I think this for most dogs, except like border collies, what I think we're seeing is intelligence in dogs is extreme pattern recognition in some of them.
13:06
are more capable than others. And then, I mean, like I said, I think that dogs are intelligent in different ways, but it's one of my favorite things about them. Because once you get on kind of the flip side of where it's affecting you negatively and you kind of harness that and harness it. Use it, oh, I love it. Harness it and use it. It's like it becomes a structure within itself. It becomes like a secret language. Yeah, predictability that actually reduces their anxiety.
13:35
I have found. So I live a very predictable life with my dog who tends to be anxious. You know, same. You know, it doesn't surprise me that Scott has this ability either. You know, German shepherds and those breeds are highly intelligent. And then you look at the fact that for the entirety or the majority of his life, he's been physically not mobile. That gives him
14:02
a lot more of his energy was focused on observation. Observation. Absolutely, yeah. 1000%. So he's just watching and watching. And he's having to build the sense, his visuals, I think, much more than a dog that maybe would be mobile in his position that would have relied on smell more, that wouldn't have relied so heavily on visual and sound. So I think it feeds into his sensitivity. Does that make sense? That's why I said that, Mattison. Well, I think it probably
14:33
also feeds into the fact that his hearing is, he's probably hyper alert. His hearing is actually stronger because he can't physically interact with the world the same. Yeah. We look like he can hear our thoughts. Yeah, kind of. I'm not even gonna say. Well, he can recognize every pattern and hear, yeah, I mean, kind of. Dogs can hear, actually, I think it's smell, that they can smell when like our heart rates go up. You know, they're gonna become very attuned to that.
15:01
creepy, but a little bit. But also that how like the service dogs work. And that's how service dogs know that people are entering different, different zones as their bodies have really, really specifics. Um, I think it's pheromones. I'm like not super sciencey. That's Jerri's, uh, Jerri's wheelhouse. Um, so then the other two long-term goals are just overall building his confidence and physically, you know, physically interacting with, with the world, listening to the world, seeing the world, all of those things.
15:30
and helping with those. So here's probably another little abbreviation that I got a little carried away with. The PDQ stands for a pre-departure cue, which is all those triggers before the triggers, right? It's all this stuff. It's like, oh, oh, they put on the not house shoes. They reached kind of towards that drawer that might have the keys in it. Like they're moving with purpose and not slouching around. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So those pre-departure cues are things that when we're doing separation anxiety work,
16:00
same thing as with sound sensitivity, we're actually creating brand new positive associations. It's just a little trickier to stay under threshold than with sound where you're like using a volume on a scale of one to 100 and you can be really intentional. You have to get kind of creative with sort of like observation triggers like that, but it's possible and we do it. So our overall kind of assessment, I think we've already kind of gone through that is that he's just so bright, but he's super sensitive.
16:30
And because of his physical limitations, he just needs a lot of accommodations. And I think that we wanna look at every and any opportunity to make reinforcement delivery easier. So that way, like the wear of the food is being delivered in these games, reduces barriers and removes barriers for him. Just in case any action causes him pain or discomfort.
16:55
We don't want to have to have him like bend over or reach up or do something that could make him uncomfortable. I wanna make it so that way that kind of possibility is removed. So that way, we were talking about maybe getting lick mats that we can like suction cup onto the wall and onto surfaces and that way it can be right at nose height. I think we had a little like snuffle mat that way it was just right there for him to snuffle at right between his paws for some desensitization work, things like that.
17:23
Oh, you're gonna say something? Yeah, she's... Oh, it's a funny story. Jerri, I don't know if you remember this, like, it's been several months. You posted a video scatter feeding Enzo. And I asked, what, do you have a suggestion for, like, a dog that can't really get around? And you replied and gave me the idea of people, like, scatter feeding him, like, out of his wiggles. And that's how we started feeding him. I was like, what with a ball?
17:52
we could there were some days that like we were in a rush or like yeah well it wasn't really every single day but for most of the time we were instead of using his bowls that are like cat bowls lower on one side we would take handful we would get like the scoop of one cup and then like scatter some out on the crowd in front of it and he really likes that where he likes us to like hide it in our hands and like mess with him and then he opened it. I learned that from I can't take credit for that I learned that from Coco.
18:20
Do you watch Coco Garcia? Yeah, because she had Mattison, do you remember Whitney? Do you remember Whitney, the old German shepherd? Yeah. That she had, she figured out like, Oh my God, this dog can still work and can still do things and she doesn't necessarily need a wheelchair right now. And it was the same. Yeah. That's how I learned that from. And I wouldn't, I've known many people over the years that had dogs that were not mobile in their hind end.
18:47
Um, and I worked for many acupuncturists, well, I would say many, several acupuncturists. And I saw dogs that were still like, they really liked their wheelchairs, but they also liked not being in them and just kind of dragging themselves around sometimes. And, and it not being this big production every single time they, they did something. Um, and so I don't know, that's where I learned that from, but it's stuck with me. So I'm glad it's stuck with you. What, what I think you really get from it is that it's not.
19:17
boring. Like, we would put his food in a bowl for the longest time. And I think- Yeah. Well, like, freaking bored. So- Yeah. All moving it around, or like- I know it didn't look as good in the videos when he was in his wheelchair because he doesn't put down as easy, but like, I think he really enjoys either us literally hand feeding, like, literally food in our hand to him, or playing a game where we're like, hiding it on the ground, or just scattering it around me as to- Kinda like- I-
19:46
I think when he does that in the wheelchair, what my favorite thing about that was, he can figure out within a second or so, I'm not going to be able to get that food at this angle of my body. And he will turn all the way around the other way and reposition himself like, oh my God, that's working his brain. Like, yeah, he does it fast. He makes the decision really quickly, whether he's going to kind of go this way or this way. And he's always right. And it's great to see. So I think that the distinction is.
20:16
We're not like getting rid of these activities that are really enriching and fulfilling, but we wouldn't want him to have to be using that kind of brain power during like an emotional counter conditioning exercise. Right, that's like an extra barrier there of like more work. Like that's great, that's great for him for enrichment and fulfillment and burning off some energy and giving him like breed specific, species specific work. But when we're looking at things like the sound sensitivity, like the pre-departure cues,
20:45
where with other dogs, maybe we would do scatters. I wouldn't recommend that for him. I'm gonna recommend we do a little bit more of like a direct reinforcement. So that way we're just, it's just a lot easier and we'll be able to move like even a little bit quicker. You can think of it as like one of those is the gym and one of those is therapy and he wouldn't go to the gym and start sobbing about some trauma that happened to you to do what would give you a really bad association with lifting weights. So the gym is really where you're really going to stay
21:15
focused and try to build practices of discipline. And then like you could think of that as your drills and then the counter conditioning and the sound sensitivity stuff, all of those things are the inside, the emotions, the inner work. And while some people may be wild enough to try to do the two together, generally it works a little better if you let them live in their own worlds and you work on them individually. Yeah. I mean, I guess I cried at the gym. Not crying at the gym, but I was going to say it. Yeah.
21:44
I guess I'm trying to do a lot of- To be fair, I don't go there specifically. Right. Nor would I be happy if I showed up to therapy and was made to hop on the treadmill. And started lifting the- Like, absolutely not. This is not what I'm here for. Okay, so I do want to move quickly past the management because again, I don't know that there's any real management that is necessary here. One thing that I do like to-
22:13
look at when we have what I would consider a moderate to severe like fear response from him in terms of the sound sensitivity in particular is that if after four to six weeks, maybe eight weeks of working through some counter conditioning, working through some of these exercises, we're just not seeing progress. He's struggling to engage in the activities. Maybe we're having trouble keeping like getting him under threshold at all.
22:42
That's where I think we would want to revisit and discuss if potentially, you know, bringing in a veterinary behaviorist to look at if medication would be necessary just for him to be able to even engage in the modification plan, right? Now I'm not, I don't think that that's something that's necessary here. I think we also have opportunities to try different approaches before going down that route, but it's something that again, if like two months from now we're kind of back here like this.
23:08
just really not clicking, then I think it's worth looking at that because that could be that there's just too much stress in the day to day and he's not really recovering enough to be able to move forward. Okay. Yeah, we're not against medication. I think that's something that we, like I said, I'm not convinced here on the front end that it will be necessary, but I do think it's something that is important to say, you know, these are the criteria for which I would want to revisit that.
23:37
I used to work for this veterinarian that said no animals should ever suffer without the benefits of steroids. And that's how I feel about behavioral medications. Like no one should be suffering when there's something that can help them. But I also don't think it's the answer. And it can't be used independently. That's the danger. Yeah. It's just something in the, you know, I don't want to say arsenal, but in the toolbox to help us. Yeah.
24:07
And that's kind of where we end. We don't, I don't want to replace something that we could do with him routinely with just a pill. But if I can't do something for him, it's like devastating, like heartbreaking to see him. Like it's really dramatic. Like we have laminate wood and he's just clawing to try and get away. Well, it's like, it's pathetic sounding and like it's heartbreaking to see. So like we can't.
24:36
mitigate that through something we're doing for him. We're doing it with the now and here. We're unhappy to look into a medication that's there. But from the day to day, he doesn't see, like, don't think he lives a fearful life. I think that there are instances that we try to, like, we go ahead and just put it in one of the...if we know we're going to be cutting something, we just pack him to one of the bedrooms, turn the light off, and let him hang out, like, as far as possible away.
25:04
But if that was not something we had to do, if he could hang out living here, maybe not right under our feet while we're cutting, I don't think, I don't need to cut right next to his face and be like, for sure. Well, like if he doesn't have a response or he has a small response, that's what I'm told for. Like, no one should be scared. We don't want him to be scared. And that's why I think, you know, looking at a modification framework where you're going very systematically and very slowly.
25:34
you know, and staying under a threshold. If, again, if working through something like that, if making adjustments to make it easier, knowing that he's gonna set the pace, if working through that is just not clicking and we just can't seem to get it right, that's when, yeah, I think we would wanna look more closely at that. So the types of things that we're gonna be doing, lots and lots, oodles and oodles of counter conditioning is actually with the crate, the crate is also counter conditioning and.
26:03
creating some new positive associations there. The everyday stressors, like you said, he doesn't live his life in stress, but there are parts of the everyday that could present stress for him. You've done a fantastic job to really just kind of shield him from those moments so he doesn't have to experience that. But those moments are still happening. Like you're still chopping, so it's still there. You know, and I don't want you to have to do that. I want you to...
26:32
look over and feel like he is okay and not feel like you're having to very, very quietly chop your vegetables. The other sounds, right? So like fireworks and big sounds. But honestly, we're probably going to start with something very, very small. Probably it's going to be just the knife out of the knife block. Zero chopping. Zero chopping today. Just the shh. Whatever, you know, whatever the salad is. I thought that was pretty good. That was pretty good. Perfect knife block sound. Thank you.
27:00
you mentioned moving the shirts around when you're folding laundry. For those types of noises where it's maybe hard to manufacture a quieter version, right? If you're like, okay, I can't quietly do a, you know. So you're just gonna get like an actual YouTube video or a recorded video of yourself doing it and just turn the volume all the way down. And that's how we get these easier versions. We call them approximations, but it's just making it easier. How can we reduce the intensity of this trigger for Scott?
27:30
start at the easiest possible version, and then just raise up the intensity as he looks like, yeah, I got this, I don't care. That's what it means to stay under a threshold, is that he's not freaking out. If he's freaked out, we've already gone too far. And I think that we would start to build the list because Scott has built the list in his head of what are all the things that you're doing before you're getting ready to leave. So we might as well figure out what that lens is too.
27:57
So we can start to do the counter conditioning to those pre-departure cues as well. And the cooperative care. I know we talked a little bit about, you know, bath time probably being a challenging area to really create new feelings because it's one of them that is just, we kind of got to get this done regularly. And maybe we can find some opportunities to make him, you know, less stressed out and therefore more cooperative. But I think really putting our cooperative care.
28:26
focus on the nail trims, because I think we have an opportunity to create a lot of agency and giving him a way to basically start the process and then stop the process when he wants. And he has a lot of, you know, ways to interact with you with his face, with the boop and the snoot and the chin. So you'd be one of those, Q. It's so cute. It's cute. And I also, full disclosure, took a screenshot of it for marketing. I was like, oh, look at the way that they're holding him. Like.
28:55
Yes, that doesn't really like it, but it's so sweet. Like he likes Snoop. He doesn't. I was gonna say a lot of dogs love that. Oh, okay. Enzo's like, I'm only doing this because we're best friends. I want you to know that I don't. Honestly, that's Remy, but my foster Parker, that's his favorite thing in the world is to have his little chin held. He loves it. So yeah, I think where we can incorporate that into a cooperative care routine and really allow him to start choosing.
29:25
the nail trimming process, but again, starting with easier versions, starting with approximations. And then we very clearly have a different routine where we got to get things done. So when we start having a cooperative care process with agency with choice, where he's allowed to say no, the times when he can't say no, we don't ask, because then it takes away that trust that we've built in the times that we are asking. So we have a brand new routine that we're devising where you're not gonna have to hold them like that.
29:53
He's gonna be just laid out and we're gonna be kind of starting over. But then you separately have your current routine to still get the job done when you gotta get the job done. And those things are two separate activities. And we wanna make them look very distinct. Love that, that makes sense. I've never looked at it. It makes sense that we would ask for his nail trims because he'll still get his nails grabbed down if we go outside, his front nails are wearing down if we run and play around on the pavement. But it makes sense that we wouldn't ask about.
30:22
taking a bath because like, I can't say no dude, I'm sorry. We gotta do the weekly scrub. Like this just needs to happen to not be an outside dog. Like this is just what it's gonna be. Yeah, well, I don't want us to get cut off and we are down to under a minute here. You know, so any other questions that you have, I want you to, I know it goes so quick. Any other questions that you have, I want you to just drop them into our private channel.
30:51
And here in the next couple of weeks, I wanna start looking at these activities and setting them up and starting to build these new feelings for Scott. I know he's ready. I'm excited. He is just something else. I tell you what, I got so much joy out of watching that. Brilliant. I really mean that. You guys are doing such a great job. I wish you guys could be eight MBs way better. Oh, I bet he is too. I've been amazing.
31:17
All right, you guys, thank you so much for hanging out with us today and going through the plan, and we will be in touch very, very soon.
31:26
Unpacked was created by Jerri Sheriff and Mattison Simpson, edited and produced by Josh Wasta under the supervision of Straight Up Dog Talk, LLC and Emily Breslin. If you are enjoying this podcast, follow or subscribe to be sure you don't miss an episode and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Looking for more honest and relatable dog content? Check out our sister podcast, Straight Up Dog Talk. See you next time.