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Ep. 17 Transcript

Episode 17 Training Touchbase (John & Julia)

00:02
Welcome to Unpacked, an open-minded podcast taking a clinical, not political approach to helping pet parents around the world. I'm Sailor Jerry, certified dog trainer, virtual dog training revolutionary, owner of Tulsa Pack Athletics and creator of The Open-Minded Approach. And I'm Madison, her friend, certified dog trainer and behavior consultant. Together we have nearly three decades of experience in behavioral dog training. We've been working with real dogs and the humans who love them.

00:29
to create solutions to problematic behaviors that feel too big for them to tackle on their own. In this episode, Madison and I are chatting with one of the Open Minded Approach interns who donated a daily four-week one-on-one training program to help one of our guests kickstart their training journey. We'll give you a quick reminder about the dog human team we'll be unpacking and dive into the actual training that the guests went through. And of course, we'll let you know how they're doing and what's next for their training this year.

00:58
If you haven't yet been introduced to the case in previous episodes, feel free to go back and listen to those first. Or jump right in. Settle in with us and unpack.

01:10
We are so excited to get to do a brand new episode type and talk to you about the actual training that we were able to provide to the guests this year. And today we have Jordan here. And Jordan, this is something that Jerry and I have had many a chuckle about behind the scenes in that the two podcast guests, one right in my own backyard, right? Right in the Philadelphia area and Jordan is too.

01:39
Um, but no, no, I matched the one local to the trainer that lives across the world. And then because really Jordan is the perfect person to have been helping Julia and John get to know Scott in a whole new way. And Jordan, I'm just, I'm so grateful to have you here, to have you as a part of the community and to be able to watch the way that you were, that you connected the dots for them was really, really special.

02:08
Thank you. I'm super excited to be here. How did you get around Tulsa Pac? How did all this start for you? That's an important part of the story, I think. So I think actually that Madison had mentioned this was part of the reason why she wanted me to work with Scott because I started with Tulsa Pac training my own dog, who happens to be very sensitive in a lot of the same ways that Scott was. Um, and when I went through the program with my own dog, I just fell in love with training in general and.

02:37
It carried me through and now I am a professional trainer myself. I love that story. I just wanted you to tell it. It's just, I mean, that's, that's the ultimate, but I mean, that's the ultimate right to me, uh, paying it forward, you know, where you were just so inspired and felt so moved that now you want to be able to do that for other people is exactly what we're doing here. So I love that. Thank you for helping us represent that. Well, you two are the ones that made me.

03:07
Well, that would explain some things. Just kidding. I might have been the first client, you know, to apprentice, to intern. Not going to be the last, right? This is something I actually was talking about. I actually don't know who, but with somebody the other day about there's a lot of, I think, negativity around the recent influx.

03:33
of trainers in the industry. And I think that's because you do see a lot of the highlights on social media being the razzle-dazzle, being the really performative style of training. But for every person that is entering the industry in that way and for those reasons, I think we have somebody like Jordan who is really being pulled into it by a deep desire to share what they learned.

04:00
And Jerry, that is your spirit, right? Of, I learned something, come on everyone, come along with me on the tournure. Wearing fringe and tassels and teaching. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Yeah, well, that's how we learn as human beings. You know, we learn something and then we turn around and we teach it and it solidifies in us even more. And just to remind everybody out there of the wonderful Scott, they had-

04:25
some very particular goals Julia and John did because Scott is the most sensitive and we've dealt with lots of sensitive, but he is the most sensitive dog I think I've probably ever encountered. And there are reasons for his sensitivities, but that doesn't mean that we can't move forward. It doesn't mean that we can't get creative and find ways to approach it just really compassionately, right? They were, they were

04:53
very interested in getting to know him, but not making him more uncomfortable with the training. They weren't trying to push him outside of his comfort zone to meet a goal that they had for him or anything like that. It was all just about easing the day-to-day stress, making his day less stressful, more peaceful, giving him more, I think, moments of relaxation. He has, you know, so much joy, so much joy. He's so smart. But he's

05:22
But ever if there was a dog that is playing chess while we're playing checkers, it is this one. This is great. This is a really great episode for, and you're going to have to identify this in yourself, that this is you and it's okay to do that. If you are one of those people that wants to know what the rope's made out of, attached to the life preserver that you need because you're drowning in the ocean and someone has come by and okay, here.

05:52
I'll help you and you're like, what's this rope made out of? What's this? Well, I don't know it. Well, that's not gonna, well, this is a really great episode for you because this is, I can assure you far beyond what most people would be willing to entertain or find creative solutions for and they're doing it. And so when I look at families like that, I think, wow, if they're doing that, I can do it.

06:19
I can find something that will work for my life that I had been told can't be done or is going to be too hard. There's an example right in front of my face of somebody who would not take no for an answer and found a solution in someone. Yes. That's such a good way to put it, that they just would not take no for an answer. Yeah. Anything less than making it work was just not going to be their reality. Once they kind of got to that point, they also looked around and said, okay, but...

06:48
There's something else. There's something more, right? Like we can be doing something to make this just a little bit smoother and easier. And so we sort of split their original goals into our two buckets, our short term and our long term. And unlike many of the cases, I actually feel like we really tackled the long-term goals pretty quickly. Now that's because some of the shorter term goals in terms of figuring out how to increase his food motivation.

07:17
and the crate comfort, those resolved very, very quickly. The food drive definitely picked up and we also saw a, just kind of a switch in the environment and the situations where we didn't need to prioritize the crate comfort anymore. And the overall big goal of understanding his body language better, we knew that that was gonna be a through line for a period of time for them. I don't know that that's ever, you know, a check.

07:44
I fully understand everything that my dog has to communicate. Not so much. But the fact that during your time together, you were able to do so much sound work and work through some of those other triggers and really building his confidence and even starting the very, very pre-work of the cooperative care. I'm just really, really thrilled with how much you were able to touch on. And also...

08:11
the depth to which you were able to go with, in particular, the noises, which is where he really needed it. Yeah. I think that the noises were actually the majority of the problem because he really had an issue with noises, even like the tiniest detail of like them getting up and walking away from him. The sound of creaking from the floor was triggering for him.

08:36
Remind us what some of the other sound triggers were that he was experiencing like daily, weekly, regularly. The first one I believe that was worked on was the soda can. He did not like the sound of the soda can. It was such an interesting one. Yeah. He went through that really, really quick. And then from there, we worked on the sound of a shirt whipping and everything in the kitchen.

09:03
every noise that happens in the kitchen, from taking a knife out of the knife block, to opening and closing a cabinet, chopping vegetables on the cutting board. And we didn't touch on all of those noises. We touched on as many as we could, but I think that they have the patience and a really, really good framework to handle the rest of them moving forward. That was one thing that was just eye-opening and amazing about Julie and Scott was their...

09:33
level of patience and John, sorry, their level of patience was just, I've never, I have never. Yeah, yeah. And this is a dog, again, that is so many steps ahead. He's a shepherd. That one experience, one event, right, in terms of cutting something on the...

09:56
on the cutting board in that kitchen. That's what I was about to say. I'm like, has been created. It's created so many like pre-triggers, right? So it's not just the cutting, it's the opening of the pepper drawer in the fridge versus the cheese drawer because the pepper drawer means something's going to be chopped and the knives coming out of the chopping block and the cabinet opening where the cutting board is kept. All of that happened over time. I'm sure it started with just, oh, he doesn't like when peppers are chopped, right?

10:26
But because he is so far ahead of us and picking up on, I know, he's just... That was my favorite thing about that dog. I was like, oh, he's getting mad at the chopping. He doesn't look chewing, but at chopping. Cataloging everything that happens in the precise order that it happens and getting stressed out earlier and earlier in the process. And that also kind of bled over into the separation anxiety or was the same pattern that sort of built...

10:55
his nervousness at, well, you know, at first I'm getting nervous because I'm watching them walk through the door, but now I know before they walk through the door, they grab their coat. And now I know before they grab their coat, they put on their shoes. And that's true for many dogs with, you know, isolation distress or separation anxiety or anything like that. But Scott was very rapidly understanding what was happening before.

11:21
And so you just have to kind of take it with intention, right, Jordan, and break them down. And what, do you know what was maybe either the first thing that you tackled related to all of the chopping or maybe what was the hardest part of that? The hardest part for Scott was maneuvering into the actual physical noises. When it came to using the staff on the computer, he would move through it quick, like really fast. It really didn't seem to bother him at all. Almost.

11:48
the point where I was like, well, why are we using a computer? Because he doesn't care about it. Once he, the first thing I noticed about Scott was when he got to a point where he was ready to move forward to the, like, you know, the next raise of the criteria, he would bark for them to start the session. He was just trying to record for me and he would just be in the background. His little little guttural shepherd bark. He's like, come on, do it. Let's go.

12:16
And so when it came to moving to the physical knowing, that's when he would start to struggle. And Scott was sensitive in the way that I think he struggled because he, unlike other dogs, he couldn't kind of move out of the way. Or it was more of a struggle for him to retreat to safety. So, I want to interrupt here and ask a question. With Scott being down in the rear and with Julia and John struggling sometimes to read him,

12:46
What are the signs that you could identify Scott is struggling right now visually? How were you identifying that? Because that was one of their challenges. That was one of their first challenges. Scott had extremely expressive eyes and ears mostly because they were like seven times the size of his head. So he wanted to tell you something. The ears were the first thing to react. And then it would be his eyes. He had like, like Shepard's too. He had like the big hump.

13:15
where his eyebrows would be. And so those were like boulders that would just move back and forth. And I it might not have looked that way to everybody, but for me watching the videos, those were the first couple things I noticed. And specifically, he had a thing for looking away. He would look away. And if you didn't catch his nerves since then, then within the next two or three repetitions, he would turn his whole body away and start to crawl off the opposite direction. So those were those were the main

13:44
things that let me know that he was he wasn't happy with the situation. He did some lip licking too, but the ears, eyes and the direction of his head were really the main thing I noticed. The lip licking was probably a little bit more of like an automatic nervous response, whereas the eyes and the ears and the very subtle avoidance, that's his way of saying like little too much, little too much. Excuse me, excuse me, bye.

14:11
And so yes, that my own dog chooses like subtle avoidance is a great way to put that a lot. And I think a lot of people's dogs use that and they're just not catching that the turn away is a, like a need to release the pressure of the moment. That was such a good catch and helping them understand what to look out for. The most, I think, important thing of this entire process is help was helping them understand because they came to us saying, we, we do not understand.

14:42
We don't know what we're trying and we're seeing some of it, but we feel like we're missing so much. I remember them saying that to us, Sheri. They're like, we just feel like we're missing things. Yeah. And it was really easy to miss the stuff that he was doing because he doesn't have that the back end expression. So he doesn't really move his tail and you can't really see it tackle. So it's hard to tell. So that was my first goal for myself personally when I got with them was to figure out what are the most.

15:11
obvious signs that I can offer them to be able to pick up on his views and how he's feeling. That's another phrase I want to start using, Jerry. Back end expressions for when you're twerking. It was just the words that came to mind. It's perfect. Thanks for that, Max. You're welcome. You know, twerking does need to be a part of more of these conversations. Thank you. You're welcome.

15:40
So what were some of the biggest wins as you were going through the training with them? Just in general, seeing Scott be happy and excited about the session and knowing that, okay, he's, he's perfectly fine here and we can push them a little bit because he was so sensitive. I was nervous about, you know, how far can I, can I push before he's going to immediately get scared? And we did make that mistake a couple of times, but

16:10
more often than not, Scott just like jumped over every hurdle as much as, you know, he could. And the, it was really the happiness that you could see on him. And when we would get through a whole session without him showing any negative body language was just, you know, I'd turn off my computer and be like dancing and like, yes, we, we made it through that. Especially, especially with the Sonic one, which was the first.

16:38
noise that we worked on when we were like done with that. And I was like, okay, just like, you know, open a can once or twice a week and give him a treat from there. And then we were finished with it. Oh my God, we, this is going to be amazing. We're going to, we're going to do all the things. And that is the exact moment that I was kind of hoping that had stood out to you too, because that first, I tackled for, I'm Scott, right? And I tackled that scary thing and I got

17:08
all the way through it, that kind of confidence building for a dog like, oh, it's that part of the brain, Jerry, right? The part that gets bigger and stronger when we do really hard things. The antigravity. And that's the one. And yeah, it grows. It learns. It grows. It learns and it grows by doing hard things that we don't want to do. That we don't want to do. And so by definition, counter conditioning would be that.

17:37
And he probably would have got up and walked away if he could have, right? Reasonably. When we first started, if we first started it, if he really could have, he probably would have just got up and walked away. So he hung around, he did something that was hard, and I think that that's about building confidence and resilience, both of those things, right? That part of your brain increases your will to live, and that's really important for all of us. We all need to have this.

18:07
thing inside of us for the re- right

18:37
I can see my dog's face. Yeah. When he makes it through something or he does something that's like really cool, I can tell that he's like, yes, I get it. I am the bestest and bravest of all boys that was ever brave. And that was Scott. He tackled that soda can better than any other shepherd I've ever seen. That's adorable. And after that, I know Julia and John did bring up me and you, Madison, like, and we

19:05
three or four separate time situations where Scott just like rocked stuff that we hadn't even worked on like the separation anxiety at one point they were like it's barely there anymore we didn't do anything he just has I guess grown confidence like you were saying and I think there was another situation they mentioned they had dinner and he stayed in the living room instead of running away down the hall like he usually does. No it just it kind of like blossomed in other areas.

19:35
That compounds, that absolutely will compound on itself the more that he can sort of get past things that are a little bit scary. Like that's where dogs can generalize this self-regulation too, right? Of, well I'm getting a little bit nervous, but I got this. I got this. I can do this. I've done it before. I can do it again.

19:56
So what is next for them? I know that we're gonna be sending them off to aftercare for a little bit of a rotational journey, but what is their focus moving forward knowing that we have tackled a bunch of big things in terms of body language and pre-departure cues and kennel comfort and food drive and that we still have a big list of sounds to keep working through?

20:24
Is there anything else that you kind of have on their ongoing plan? Yeah, so I know that they're going to continue to work on the sounds. They have that whole framework. They work through so many of them. But we also left off with the cooperative care. So I know that that is something that is really, really important to them that Scott struggles with. So I think that that is going to be a big focus that there's going forward. That and continuing to build confidence.

20:53
I also know that they wanted to work on his recall when he has his wheels on. And I really wish that I could be around to see that, but you know. Yeah, it was a problem that they never expected to have, right? I don't know, him taking off like, just literally runs with his, when he gets his wheels on, he's like, hi. Yeah, and I think that's just. That had me ruling.

21:23
I mean, God bless those people really. They're sick. Perfect. You know, they have a great sense of humor, lots of patience. I just, it kind of strategize that with them, right? Like we gave them access to your recall course, Jerry, and we strategized, you know, Scott's going to have to be an offense scenario for that because a long line is not practical with the dog in wheels. It's just not practical, right? And like, it could be dangerous for him.

21:52
Right? If he falls and kind of gets tangled and it just defeats the purpose. So I think they're going to need to be in some sort of fenced in area where safety is not an issue and they're not going to take it off into the street. I mean, theoretically they could figure out how to use a flexi or a something like between two trees that has something that's, I have a client right now that has something that like moves in that way. So it would be above- Maybe our arms above our heads, people. Oh yes.

22:20
It's up in the air. It's up above him, sort of like a glass. It works visually. Not a visual medium. So it's like a zip line, but for a dog on wheels. You know, and I wanted to, I'm glad that you brought up the cooperative pair, because this is not a situation where their dog doesn't like having their nails trimmed. And so a couple of times a year, they need to go to the vet to get the nails trimmed and they'd like to be able to do it at home. That's not what this is. This is a dog that needs

22:50
frequent care at home, frequent grooming care, frequent cleanup situations. And so not doing those things and delaying them is not an option. So we've talked to them about both balancing activities where we can try and create that new emotional response, build the confidence, all of that, create ways that he can initiate processes, all of that. However, on the days...

23:17
when we have to clean Scott because Scott needs to be cleaned, not using those routines in which allow the opt out to not muddy them. And so I don't know that their cooperative care training plan is ever going to be a fully cooperative routine. It may be that we have these routines that they still have to do once a week, couple of times a month, whatever it is. And then we are also separately still just trying to make them as.

23:45
minimal stress as we can and then do in a little bit of additional counter conditioning to try and make him feel a little bit better about it. He's never gonna love it. He's never gonna love having his nails grinded or having his butt washed after you know a Scott event. But we can make it a little bit less stressful on him. A Scott event. I think that's what they called it. I mean who wants a butt wash after Scott event? I don't. Not Scott.

24:15
not Scott, that's it. Is there anything else Jordan that you just want the people out there to know about Scott and Julian and John and what it was like working through this process with them? It was a very educational experience for me. I'm not even going to pretend it wasn't because it felt good almost. It felt almost like I had to

24:42
kind of throw a lot of my own education away so that I could be more creative with the situation because I am used to, okay, scatter feeding, okay, you know, redirecting, but those things weren't an option. This was my first experience with a dog who was essentially immobile. So there was a lot of creative solutions to use. Like the first one that came to my mind is the pad that we had them put on the back of their kitchen cabinets.

25:12
so that they didn't close as loud. And like having one of them down the hall while the other one's in the room with him, like it took two people to train him in certain scenarios. And so I think the biggest thing that I would tell people about this situation is just don't be afraid to be creative. Make outside of the box, whatever box you're in, dig out of it and find other solutions. If you have a dog who has a

25:41
um, less than typical situation going on. We love the atypical situations. It'd be all the complex ones. We love the complex cases around here. That's, that's the truth. We like a good, a good challenge. We like a good opportunity to, um, approach something differently, try something different, the sideways ways. I don't know if that's that phrase that I remember from some other episode we were recording, Jerry. Sideways ways.

26:12
Well, that is it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. We will be back next month with another training touch base episode.

26:24
Unpacked was created by Jerry Sheriff and Madison Simpson, edited and produced by Josh Wasta under the supervision of Straight Up Dog Talk, LLC and Emily Reslin. If you are enjoying this podcast, follow or subscribe to be sure you don't miss an episode and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Looking for more honest and relatable dog content? Check out our sister podcast, Straight Up Dog Talk. See you next time.

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