AN OPEN-MINDED PODCAST.
Ep. 18 Transcript
Episode 18 Training Touchbase (Allison)
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00:02
Welcome to Unpacked, an open-minded podcast taking a clinical, not political approach to helping pet parents around the world. I'm Sailor Jerry, certified dog trainer, virtual dog training revolutionary, owner of Tulsa Pack Athletics and creator of The Open-Minded Approach. And I'm Madison, her friend, certified dog trainer and behavior consultant. Together we have nearly three decades of experience in behavioral dog training. We've been working with real dogs and the humans who love them.
00:29
to create solutions to problematic behaviors that feel too big for them to tackle on their own. In this episode, Madison and I are chatting with one of the Open Minded Approach interns who donated a daily four-week one-on-one training program to help one of our guests kickstart their training journey. We'll give you a quick reminder about the dog human team we'll be unpacking and dive into the actual training that the guests went through. And of course, we'll let you know how they're doing and what's next for their training this year.
00:58
If you haven't yet been introduced to the case in previous episodes, feel free to go back and listen to those first. Or jump right in. Settle in with us and unpack.
01:10
I am so excited to get to do these episodes, these new episodes where we are actually reflecting back on the training with the trainers that came in and helped these dogs. And we have Holly here with us today, Holly Dylinski with Holly's Dog Training Academy in Bucharest, Romania. Is that correct? Yes, it is. Thank you for having me here. This was a really fun process for us to add on to.
01:38
the podcast of being able to have our students come in and really donate their time of one-to-one training so that way the guests on the podcast get more intensive work for a longer period of time than we were kind of able to provide. And this is the power of community, right? Coming together and all really wanting to help and even more things were born from this with scholarship and it's just been an incredible whirlwind.
02:06
And I know that when Jerry and I were discussing which intern, to put with which case, it was funny because one of the cases, Lucifer, who we're going to talk about today, he's in my own backyard. He's in the Philadelphia area. And so is the other intern, Jordan. But no, I decided to match him up with the one across the world and plan to match Jordan with the one, I think, down in North Carolina. So that's just what it is. And that's the whole...
02:35
story of virtual training, right? Is that the right trainer for you is probably not in your own backyard or neighborhood. They could be across the world. And virtual training allows us to connect with the people who are best equipped to help us and who are ready to help us. And it's just, oh, it was so cool to see that this was so cool to see. And Halle, I could tell that you developed a really good relationship with Allison through this process.
03:04
their relationship developed. Yeah, it was really amazing to watch. So a quick reminder of who Allison and Lucy are. They live in Philadelphia area and Lucy is a Labrador and he's pretty reactive, leash, barrier, sound, kind of all the things. He was pretty tightly wound and she was finding it really unmanageable to get him.
03:34
around the block to get him out to the bathroom to do the things that are a part of city life. And he was really struggling even in their home to a pretty big degree where even the times when she was at home with him and trying to get some work done that was not really going super well if he wasn't fully engaged in some type of activity. I wanted to tackle the sound sensitivity that Lucifer had.
04:02
It really made things very, very difficult for both of them, as you said, especially inside the home. And you would expect at least inside the home for them to have some sort of peace and quiet and some sort of applause from all the other triggers that were outside in the city. But unfortunately, they did not have that. And it was very, very, very difficult for them to just go about their daily lives. So one of the first things I really wanted to work on.
04:32
was to start desensitizing him to some of the sounds they would usually hear outside of their apartment. Yeah, you know, I remember it being kind of funny that the sounds that bother Lucy are not the big events. Fireworks did not bother him, but if somebody was talking in the stairwell of the apartment building, big trigger. Anything with the door was really top of it. But yeah,
05:01
As trainers see a dog that is experiencing that much dysregulation in a day, they're probably not recovering. They're probably not recuperating well. Their nervous system isn't getting the actual break that it needs. And I know there's a lot of stress hormones that are just pumping during that. I'm not going to go too deep into that, but the impact of all that cortisol. Okay, do it. Do it.
05:30
Yeah, you're getting cortisol dumps all the time. And the body is not designed to withstand that without negative consequence. So it's, we need, we need the things like adrenaline and we need those hormones because that stuff keeps us alive. It keeps us safe through thousands, hundreds of thousands of years of evolution where, you know, us and dogs. It's, we need that stuff. But when your system is.
06:00
constantly tasked, dumping these hormones that are really designed to help you with fight or flight, you're not only taxing the body, but you're creating traumas that are recurring over and over and over and over and it's getting trapped in the body with no release, no nothing. It just creates really unstable, dysregulated people and dogs and
06:29
you know, name any other sentient being, you could apply that too. But I think it's important that people link what we're talking about with when that's happened to them. Yeah. Because that's what people are missing. They see that this is going on with their dog, but I don't think they're able to connect until they have the information really. That put yourself in that place where you have been so stressed out every single day for three, four years of your life.
06:59
and they only live to be 12, 15. That is the equivalent of us being stressed out for 40 years. You know, I really want people to make that connection that if you can't even have peace and respite in your own home, you're gonna have a lot of disaster around your life. Well, and if that's impacting their home life, then we have to kind of assume it's impacting their rest and their sleep.
07:28
And that's so important for recovery to have good deep rest. And dogs sleep a lot, right? They sleep a lot more than we do. They need a lot more sleep than we do. And if, you know, throughout the day, when they should be getting some good rest, it's interrupted with more triggers, even low level, and they're not able to recover within their own home, it's really hard to move forward with tackling anything outside of the home. It's really unfair. I mean, imagine if you make a nap.
07:57
during the day that you need it. So you're tired and you wanna take a nap during the day and your car alarm keeps going off outside and you get up and you turn it off and then it goes off again and again and again. Or somebody keeps ringing your doorbell and you have, you know, it's that startling feeling that dogs get when they are fearful, they are not worried that their boyfriend is gonna break up with them. They are not worried that they're gonna be late to work. They're worried that they're gonna be killed or maimed.
08:27
Like that. It's all survival. It's all survival, yeah. It's because of the part of their brain that is more developed is older, right? And that's what it's wired to do is keep them alive. Anyway. I can add one thing. Please. I wanted to talk just a little bit about Allison because she was a very good partner in this process.
08:51
because it can be hard for the client to understand why we're focusing so much on one thing when there's so many other problems that are going on and affecting them always. But she asked questions, she was very, very interested and curious, and she was very, very good at understanding why we really need to focus on this problem to actually make the progress she wanted to achieve.
09:20
throughout this process. I thought it was very more than I have. I thought it was very just really awesome to see somebody really step up and push through because it's not it's not easy for me as somebody who's a little sound sensitive, sometimes get a little bit dysregulated and Lucy was passing on a lot of his stress to her. So when he was getting stressed out about the noise, he was just going to her face and barking that would dysregulate me.
09:50
And she handled it honestly grounded and patient with him. And I think that you summed it up really well. She's a perfect partner for him. Okay, so when we were first getting started, we wanted to tackle the sound sensitivity. But knowing that they live in the urban environment, this was sort of what added in the extra challenge. There wasn't an option of, well, just don't go on walks. They have to go on walks for him to use the bathroom.
10:18
So that's going to be multiple times a day. So completely avoiding triggers, unrealistic. Not going to work for any length of time, not even for a single day unless they left. Which at a certain point in the process they kind of did. They kind of did just have trips planned and were able to go away and decompress out of the city, which I think was really helpful. But can you talk about some of the training that you did to prepare her?
10:45
when they were to sort of take a new approach to get around the block or to get to the green spaces for potty breaks, the active management strategies. Yeah, exactly. That's what I wanted to say. I first of all wanted them to have an active management system, something they could get really fluent in and that would come naturally to them so they could actually go on walks and everyone would be safe because obviously we wanted them to be safe but also the people around them. Since there are so many people and there can be...
11:14
high-risk situations always. So I really wanted her to be able to turn him around if they saw any triggers or get his attention, things like that were very crucial in the process. We also added a muzzle on which they immediately started conditioning to create a positive association. And I felt like these things really gave Allison some confidence.
11:44
because it really goes a long way for the handler to know they have the confidence to handle their dog. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. What were some of the, or what was the strategy? I know we tried at least one thing that didn't really click or didn't pan out for Lucy. We tried the scatters at first. Yeah, that was our go-to and he just really didn't have any interest in the scatters. He was just like, I...
12:12
don't care about this, I don't want this. It wasn't active enough, it wasn't enough movement. It was a little bit too decompressed. Yeah, and he's also the type of dog that had a bit of a hard time orienting his face downwards. He really wanted to have a better perspective of what's going on around him. He really wanted to have that visual cue as well. So he had that though, like especially in a city environment because...
12:40
There's probably a lot of sounds and smells that make it hard to know where things are coming from. So he probably felt the need for more visual information. Just an absolute thought. Yeah, he's also very, very attentive to Allison. So again, that would have cut off his visual of her making things more difficult for him. He's what we call a stage five sinner.
13:09
the handler, but also needing to visually look at the environment, which is very different from some dogs. There are dogs that live in the middle of the city that are overwhelmed by the visual and getting their head down and helping them not see the visual is more helpful to them. So it's good to talk about what worked for him because it's so different. So what do you think?
13:37
Do you think that that's more environmentally driven or do you think that that's more like just a genetic thing, Molly? What do you think about that? I know what I think, but I want to hear what you think about. Do you think, I'm gonna stop talking. I think it's a mix of both. I don't really think you can separate them. It's obviously a genetic thing. I mean, that's the most obvious thing. But if you were to put this dog in another environment or if you were to have put this dog...
14:05
from the start in another environment, things may have been a bit different. But nevertheless, I think in his situation, it's just a mix of everything. And also his environment growing up, something that really stood up to me was that he really didn't have much stability when he was young. So that might also contribute to this need of his to orient to everything in the environment.
14:34
It sounds like you're talking about a person that instability when they were young, they have genetic factors that are probably contributing because of just who they are. And they have environmental factors that are not allowing them to thrive. Like these, all these things are connected together with us, with them. And if we can see it this way about past traumas, genetics, and how does your nurture and your environment, how does all of that play in, we're going to get a much better picture like we are of this.
15:03
I was going to add in just that, Jerry, the learning history, which can include trauma. We learn a lot from our trauma about the things that do and don't work and things we do and don't need to do to protect ourselves. There was a significant focus on getting Lucy breed specific and appropriate enrichment out in a more natural environment because not a whole lot of that in Philadelphia. And
15:33
We hit a couple of bumps, I should say, in that. And Hallie and I had a couple of conversations about this. That is, and they're called learning discoveries. Oh, right. Sorry. Right. They were on purpose. So glad it happened. I mean, but you're not wrong. Every time, and that's kind of the exact point of what we were just saying of.
15:53
We can go in with some assumptions about what's going to work based on genetics, and then we have to adjust based on environment and learning history. That's just how we find the approach for Lucifer, which is not going to be the approach for all labs in the city. That's not the way that it works. This is the approach that worked for him and Allison. The relationship, that's also important because you put a totally different person in there, and the situation is totally different too.
16:23
It really depends on the team as a whole. So both of them are very important when we're talking about what training we should do, what adjustments we should make, how do we structure the process, what steps do we give them each day. And so I think that we were really wanting to find opportunities for him to interact with natural bodies of water. And we kind of wrestled back and forth with, is this something that he...
16:52
he needs and there's a drive for and it's there and his lack of socialization to it is kind of getting in the way because he's just too nervous to interact with it or doesn't understand how to interact with it. Or is that actually not a drive and it would be a nice to have and he might enjoy it were he a more confident dog, but there are other drives that we could tap into. And I think this was toward the end of the process and we had just decided to have her start something a little bit different with some retrieval
17:22
with a retriever dummy and like a take-hold give and having him carry things while he walks. So, you know, we don't have to push and force and we can keep trying and see if he opens up to it as he becomes more confident and as the reactions continue to subside and as the relationship builds, you know, he may show more interest, but we don't have to force it. We can always pivot and try something else. So, and it might not be this, it might be something else. Maybe he wants to try something else, who knows? He's his own unique individual.
17:51
Yeah, I remember one day when I was talking to her, I had suggested something. She said it isn't really possible. And I remember I replied to her, you know, that's fine. This isn't the only way we can try something different. And I feel like that's valid for all the training we've done. Like there are always options. We just have to get creative or do more research, but we can always get to do something different that will work eventually.
18:18
Were there any other times during training that we felt like we took a pivot or maybe you added in a skill that you didn't expect to, especially thinking about the, just being outside on the leash and helping her be more confident? Because I know that was a huge goal for her, which to not be, not for her to not have to feel so on edge getting him out to go around the block into the bathroom. Yeah. I remember one day when she told me.
18:46
about an incident they had with another person with their dogs coming up to them. And she was very frustrated that that person didn't understand that they wanted space, and it occurred to me then, well, we cannot really control what other people do in the environment. I mean, we can tell them, you know, stop, stay there, please don't come here. But ultimately, we can really control them. But what we can do is maybe make some adjustments to our own setup.
19:14
to make the people less likely to really come up into our faces. And I remember I suggested to her, she put a sticker on her leash saying, you know, don't touch or we need space or something like that. And I feel like that really made a difference. And again, it made a difference to her and her confidence, knowing that, you know, she has this extra element in her setup that is going to help her moving forward.
19:44
a great conversation starter, right? Because it kind of makes it really easy to just point down to whatever is on your leash and say, hey, can you just give us some space? And I know that there is a thing where reactive dogs can wear, I think it's yellow, and have a yellow leash, and that's meant to represent give us space. But I still think putting the words on there is a good idea, because people can see that from a pretty good distance. And again, it can be difficult to speak up in those moments.
20:13
And I have my clients practice that, practice it, practice body blocking, practice saying, no, thank you, practice saying, give us space, practicing back up, whatever you got to say in that moment, right? Because if you wait until that moment, you're probably not going to come up with the right words. I regularly invite people to channel their energy and those minutes. You know, like I just don't, I never, I never ever.
20:42
No matter where Enzo and I are at, I never have a problem with people. Maybe, maybe people should get sleeve tattoos. I don't know. It might be, but I do think that it's because over time, I have practiced doing it so much and advocating for my dog so much, while also being, trying to be approachable. You know, I want people to come and ask. I want people to look at him and ask to pet him. But I also want people to know
21:11
You know, I'm gonna snatch you up by your hair. I'm kidding. I'm not, I'm not gonna snatch you. I mean, I want to, but I mean what I'm saying. Say, stand back. You know, please don't. And you do get better at it over time, people. You get better at it. You find nice ways to say it. I don't even ever have to be mean to people. So just keep practicing if that's something that you're struggling with out there with your dog. There are ways to be assertive about being abrasive or aggressive, right? Yeah.
21:40
I mean, I think what it is is that it's just called honesty and people just are not well versed in practicing it in times when they're uncomfortable. I think people are honest most of the time when they're comfortable. And then when a discomfort or a confrontation comes about, we revert to fawning, appeasing people. We will laugh at something that we actually found.
22:07
off-putting because we don't know what else to do and it's awkward. It's just something that human beings do and we just have to be aware of it because that's the core reason why people are struggling with not being able to advocate for their dogs is confrontation. It's difficult for people. It is. I agree. I don't like it, but it's a part of life so we should be good at it, right? Oh gosh.
22:35
I'm embracing the discomfort, right? That's the season, including confrontations. Yeah, and then when you get to the part where you embrace the discomfort and the confrontation, that's great, but then you gotta go to the next level, which is discernment. I've been stuck here for a while. It's a long, long chapter in the book, the discernment chapter. Lots and lots of mistakes, lots of eating crow. So just, sad tangent for everyone.
23:01
So literally right before we got on this call, I was just reading back through the original HACE plan and the original three goals and feeling pretty good, feeling pretty good about where they are now in that I feel most of these are pretty well checked off in that, you know, he's not being affected by the barrier reactivity. That one was something that, like you said, we tackled it first and we tackled it as close to fully as I think we could.
23:31
reactions to any of the sounds. Lost I kind of checked. It was like somebody maybe even like knocked on the door. He was like, whatever. Yeah, yeah. Once they heard loud noises in the staircase, I think, and he just had absolutely no reaction. Yeah, yeah. Which is incredible. And that is not something that, you know, we expect to see no reaction. You know, we'll take acknowledgement, minimal response, but he has been
24:01
really willing to kind of let a lot of stuff go and going into more of that that restful state, which is so amazing. I know that she is also being able to relax a little bit more at home now. He's not screaming in her face all the time because he's bored and triggered. He is self-regulating. She's able to be on Zoom calls without him being heard. Oh, sweet woman. I tell you what. Patience. It's the patience.
24:31
And then the walks, I mean, he's not non-reactive on the leash. Again, I didn't expect for us to be at the point where I could say, okay, it's all, it's all done, it's all, it's all cleared up, but the confidence that she has to get around the block, to get them to the green space, like that's just, the change in her is as noticeable and impactful to this as the change in Lucifer. Absolutely. And I remember one time they were on the walk.
24:59
A dog was barking at Lucifer and Lucifer just looked at Allison and she just described it as, oh, he's just looking at me and he's expecting something. So, you know, we'll just get through it. We'll give him the treats and that's it. And that was amazing. When you have a dog that is so focused on their person, you can lean into that relationship a lot when there's trust there. Absolutely. Oh, and I think I saw the other day that she had set up some type of giant snuffle pile for him.
25:27
And they're just doing a lot of like really creative enrichment. I remember talking to her a lot about that, about how, especially in the cities, you just have to get really creative to find ways to provide a diverse and enriching home environment. Just because the outside world is going to be mostly chaos. And the enrichment really clicked with him. He really liked that. And it really seemed to be building up his confidence as well.
25:56
Another thing that was on our kind of list of goals was to just have much better skills at managing his arousal, which that was something that I feel like the two of them clicked with. There was a certain turning point where I don't know if it was when the enrichment clicked. I don't know if it was when we got that regulation down. I want to say it was near weeks three, four, maybe five, and all of a sudden we just...
26:24
at like every single day there was a win, a win, a win. We had a great walk, we had a great this, we had a great that. And it just felt like they'd really turned a corner. Probably her confidence building was a huge part of that too. And when you're feeling more confident, you're looking for the wins more than looking for what went wrong, which that's an important shift too. Yeah, that's true. I think you really start focusing more on the positive aspects rather than seeing the negative every single day.
26:54
And I remember writing in my notes because I also write their wins. And every day I was writing, win, win, win. And it was so fulfilling for me as well. That's a wonderful practice to continue in your career is to do that. I agree. Well, what is next for Allison and Lucy? What have we sort of recommended for them to be focused on and working on as they go into their aftercare with TulsaPAC?
27:24
We built them a whole training plan in which we mostly focus on really strengthening all the skills they already have because always good foundations are a must in training. And something we incorporated is the retrieve you and I talked about because we really want to get him to express some of his drives.
27:54
then maybe we'll get to see something else, like going in the water. And I feel like this is also working towards their relationship building, because again, it can be a fun skill to do together and for them to discover how to work on. So that's really what we are focusing on moving forward.
28:24
all else, right? There's a lot that we can do to lean into the relationship, to use that as a motivator, to use that as a reinforcer. Yes, we should be, you know, paying things with food. Yes, we should be managing the arousal in other ways. But there is a deeper drive in there that is the partnership. And so to lean into that, when you have a dog that's kind of insecure, and to say, it's okay, you can just count on me in those moments when you don't know if
28:53
If you're okay, you can just look at me and I'll let you know if we're good or not. It can be really, really transformative in helping them feel that they're safe in a lot of different environments. But we do still want to build his confidence because we don't want him to need to be around her. So obviously there are other things that we're doing. And this is something I remember I talked to you about that by letting him lean on and put his trust on her in difficult moments, we're building his confidence.
29:23
Yeah, yeah, because it's getting them through situations and it's helping them feel more confident in all these different environments or a difficult environment, we could say. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on and chatting through Lucy's training with us. We will have more of these episodes as we unpack more cases.
29:45
Unpacked was created by Jerry Sheriff and Madison Simpson, edited and produced by Josh Wasta under the supervision of Straight Up Dog Talk, LLC and Emily Breslin. If you are enjoying this podcast, follow or subscribe to be sure you don't miss an episode and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Looking for more honest and relatable dog content? Check out our sister podcast, Straight Up Dog Talk. See you next time.