Ep. 24 Transcript

Episode 24: Training Touchbase (Kirsten @TheCanineDetective) 
Case: Stranger Danger

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00:00
Well, hello Kirsten. We are so excited to chat with you today about this case and about the training.  But before we dive into the specifics, I was wondering if you could just take a minute and tell the dog people out there just how you came into our world  and a little bit more about your background and your approach. Hi Madison and Jerry. Thanks for having me on. So I've been involved in Telsa Pac. Thank for about a year now and have pretty much taken.

00:28
all of the internships, all of the courses.  So for new dog trainers, I would definitely recommend getting involved with them. Love the behavior mentorship, loved the  one-on-one apprenticeship with Jerry. That really helped me gain the confidence to be my own  business owner, my own dog trainer. So that was really fun.  I got into dog training like many of us do with that pipeline of behavior dog to dog trainer.

00:56
My first pup was a reactive rescue healer, Melanwa mix. so I really owe  everything.  My eyeballs were like,  okay.  So that's what really got me into dog training was I spent thousands and thousands of dollars and hours working with a bunch of trainers, working with vets, figuring out what the heck was quote unquote wrong with my dog. Because to be honest, I was a very

01:24
New dog owner at that point, I had my parents' dogs growing up, which were little Pomeranian mixes that were not very well trained. Little different. So  it was a zero to a hundred. And so that's how I started the dog training process. Interned with people, took the courses, got the certifications,  and now here I am. So I'm not sure, is that enough of a background for your viewers? Yeah. And honestly, Kirsten, you are, I think, the perfect representation of the student sponge.

01:53
You were so  excited and ready to absorb all the new information. So  getting to watch you take these lessons and internalize them and then immediately be able to turn around and apply them has been really cool to watch. Oh, thank you. That's so kind. I agree. It's I remember  the very beginning, the very beginning  and just the difference  in the way you present yourself and speak to other people is like just skyrocketed. It's incredible.

02:21
I love watching it. like watching over. I'm glad people come here and they stick around because it's really  special to watch someone  actually progress. You can, they're around you so you can, by pro, by approximation, I think is what you start to see. Wow. People really do change. And it's not true that we're all just,  that we're all just always the same. it's not true. If you're a curious person.

02:47
and you put yourself around other curious people, you can learn and grow so much.  It's been lovely to watch.  Thank really has. So I'm curious, what were your first thoughts when you were paired with Grace and Stella? What really stood out to you about them as a team?  I thought it was really cool because I saw a lot of myself in Grace and Stella.

03:10
because that was my experience with Frodo with my first dog. lot of the similarities of Stella likes other dogs. So that's already I'm like, oh, fantastic.  That's so much easier. But it was just really nice to see a person who was so devoted to figuring out how to help their dog and so willing to put in the work. And I think I've said this to you before privately. I think Grace and Stella maybe made a in a month.

03:37
six months worth of progress. they just really put in the work  and to see someone that dedicated  and she just also was very intuitive where she got to know Stella really well and they had spent a bit of time together obviously before we hopped into this program but it was very clear to me that she was very in tune to  trying to see what Stella's body language was which was super cool to have a client that was already so into figuring out

04:05
what a dog needed and what their dog was telling them within their interactions and willing to go at their own dog's pace. And that's why I think they made as much quick, for lack of a better term, progress as they did was because they were totally okay with going slow to go fast, which as when you're working with a dog that separation anxiety, fearfulness, or a bit of stranger danger when it comes to people, a lot of times people will go and do flooding, they'll like really overwhelm a dog. And that doesn't help with progression.

04:34
already, I would say that they were just such a great team to work with. Yeah, I agree. And it seems definitely she showed up, right? Like she showed up consistently. She'd put in a lot of work and I could see her interpretation of events really unfold throughout those four weeks to where she really started locking in, oh, I know what I'm seeing now. And when we can help the human have that light bulb moment, we know that their lives have changed completely and it's never going to go back.

05:01
Because those are the ones you see them, you can't unsee them things. it was so cool because for the viewers out there, they had a long list of goals. And I would say we probably made progress even to a certain degrees in all areas because they were... Grace was really of the mind of, me what I need to do and I will do them. So I would come pretty much every day and there would be a stack of videos for me to review. There would be...

05:29
messages for us to go back and forth. She was very much, I did the thing, what's next? Can you tell me what ends? Yeah, just the engagement was huge. And it was so fun to see them progress. Because as you said,  week on week, I was seeing the leaps when it came to  her confidence, Stella's confidence. So that was really cool to see. Let's put a pin in that right there and talk about that.  Because everyone that's listening, what's the difference between  that experience  that a dog parent could have?

05:59
versus  someone who is struggling and feeling like it's not going very well with the same exact trainer, same exact trainer. What are some of the things  that  you just said them? So let's clarify that or let's go back and highlight that stuff. What makes someone successful in virtual training?  As a client or as a trainer? As a client.  So like  you show up, you engage,  ask questions. If you don't understand.

06:25
Curious because everyone learns differently, right? So I may have said something to one client and it made perfect sense. But maybe I say the exact same thing to another client and it doesn't.  I was always the kid in the class that had their hand up. I had on my report card. Here's the needs to I but the teachers would tell me I'm sorry you can't raise your hand anymore in class.  So  I really value that in a student and I think that's how you get it. If you're paying somebody to teach you how to do something, do not feel bad about asking clarifying questions.

06:55
And you're not dog trainers, speaking to clients here. There's no, a lot of people be like, Oh, like, I don't know what to do. And they feel really down on themselves. Yeah, of course you don't know what to do. You're not a dog trainer. We're not expected. You have this  creature who's not a human living in your home. It's totally fine to not know the answer. Sorry. I went on a little bit of a tangent there, Jerry. No, that's good because I often ask myself every once in a while, I will have a client that I feel like isn't successful.

07:24
And I'm trying to find that common little red thread between all of them. something here? Yeah, please. wonder if the difference, and this just bubbled up as you were speaking, Kirsten, I wonder if the difference is a commitment to  an outcome versus a commitment to the process. I think that's one of the reasons. I think one, I think there's a group of people who are definitely really  outcome focused.

07:50
Yeah, results in general results oriented. so they will gravitate to that and have a more difficult time dismantling that and accepting some of the things that you were saying, Kay, about  not being attached to some of those things and just seeing it for what it is. There are always going to be people that have a hard time with that.  I have noticed,  I would say the largest group air quotes of people that struggle or the most common group, let's say it like that are the over analyzers in the people that, that.

08:20
Everything does not need to be a think piece.  I  will never actually really know what my dog is thinking.  I think that I know. I think that I know what Madison is thinking a lot. It's taken me years of being around her, being in good situations, being in bad situations,  arguing, agreeing. It takes so much.  And the times that I struggle...

08:47
in relationship every single time has been when I try to place what I think is going on inside that other being's head. And then I start  navigating. I'm doing robot arms people.  I start navigating. I start  actually going out in the relationship and doing things based on what I believe in my head that other person is thinking. And I have learned. You make assumptions.  And it gets you in places.

09:17
that you don't want to go. And it also,  I think,  opinion  is  a  survival tactic. I think it's a way people distract themselves from getting to a goal. It's like,  I don't know if self-sabotage is the right word, but  I have some clients who are just like what you described, and I know it in the first week. I'm like, look at you. I asked you to send me a two minute video and you did.  And you didn't  even have a question.

09:47
Like some days you have a question, some days you don't, you always keep it. There's brevity there. You're very to the point. I could see that you're working through. And then I think some people need much more out of a dog trainer. And that may be their only opportunity to work on the art of relationship. They may never go to therapy. They may not have anybody close to them that they can talk to. And so I just noticed that.

10:10
We describe these happenings with clients and what's the, what are you guys seeing? Are you, I'm seeing over analyzers for the most part. I rarely get people who are not invested. All of my clients are really invested in, in trying. think maybe people pleasing tendency speaking to myself and my own experience of, definitely have been in the over analyzer camp. And I think that you probably experienced that with me when I first started with you. And I think that comes from.

10:40
lack of confidence. Not necessarily in general because for instance just using myself as a case study here I consider myself in general a pretty confident and competent person but I think that dogs hit us in a very interesting sweet spot where  we're depending on the individual  as sensitive about our dogs as we are about our children and so people a lot of times will put that value on it and really internalize the guilt of

11:07
Oh, I'm like a bad mom or bad dog mom.  Again,  you could apply this to any gender. I'm just using it as an example. And so they feel the need of they feel a strong sense of failure when they're not getting it right. And so then they start to overanalyze because they're so anxious about it. And maybe this is this is subconscious. I don't think necessarily this is at a conscious level. But I can speak from like a people pleasing perfectionist perspective of

11:35
Oh, I need to overcompensate by like  really trying to understand what's going on here because I feel this so strongly. Yeah. When this is going well. Overcompensation. Wow. I never thought about it like that. I'm overcompensating. Okay. like that. Make up for some days where I'm feeling resistance somewhere else in my life. And this honestly feels a little bit like one of our other cases  of the two dog pair  in  Kuwait, right?  Oh yeah.

12:04
Yeah. Of trying to know the unknowable  versus dedicating that energy into,  but what are the first steps to get out versus studying the hole that you're stuck in? Get out of the hole, start climbing. Yeah. In recovery, they,  it's the ditch.  They're like, are you going to your couch down there now? You're good. So you're going to move your couch down there in your TV so that you can.

12:28
watch TV in between studying the ditch. Yeah, it's the, I hope that this is helpful for people because it's helpful for me. I have the opposite problem. I have never been a people pleaser. I've had perfectionist issues, but those have drugs and alcohol really cured that for me. I think that's why people are so gravitated  towards you, Jerry, though, is because I would,  I think, I know because I think- from perfectionism.  No, seriously, because I think and I think- I'll take it.

12:57
Maybe I'm putting myself in Madison's camp and maybe we're not, but I would say like the average dog trainer, not always, but a decent amount of us are recovering people pleasers and tends towards perfectionism and versus you show up online very authentically yourself with, am I allowed to swear on your podcast? don't remember. Yes. Yeah. No fucks given.  Zero fucks the best way, like very authentically yourself, very not in an egotistical way, but purely this is what the truth is.

13:25
I don't need to sugarcoat it for you because I'm being honest and that's your best way forward. And I think a lot of us struggle with showing up that way, even if it's our inside thoughts. So I think that's why so many of us  want to work from you with a client perspective or learn from you in my case, from like a student perspective is acknowledging we're never gonna be you, but there's parts of you that we would like to emulate. Thank you for verbalizing that so clearly.

13:50
Um, stole my delusional self-confidence from you. delusional self-confidence is an endless supply and you can steal as much as you like.  had a client the other day, shout out Abby and Ava. And she was telling me about a scenario that occurred. This to our point. She was telling me about some, she lives in a busy city and she has a pity mix. That's great. Her name's Ava. She's  I think doing very well.

14:18
but she still struggles occasionally in certain particular situations because she just isn't quite sure how to handle them. And it was baffling to me. I'm like, how can you not know how to handle that? Obviously I don't say it like that to clients because that's  shitty and rude, but in my head I'm questioning what am I missing here? What, and that's what it is, is because she said to me, she's okay, let me tell you,  I am a recovering people pleaser. And I was like,  oh.

14:46
Because my response, she's, what she said was this, I was waiting for a mailman to do what he needed to do in front of me. I was giving my dog space. She was doing well, all the things. And a woman came up behind her and walked right by her from behind and Ava lunged at her. And she was able to hold her. Nothing happened. And then the lady took out her phone and started recording her. And she's like, what could I have done differently? And she was just like going spinning around with a little drain.

15:15
And she's, tried my best. I, and in that moment I had to explain to her, this is what happens.  You guys, this is the danger of people pleasing. Yeah. Because now whose fault does this have to be? It's not, I'm, and I'm using this as an illustration. This is not what Abby said. Abby was obviously very open and we had a great conversation about it, but when you people please, and you're worried more about what's going on with that other person over there that you don't know.

15:44
or just as an example,  somehow it ends up not being your fault. Somehow it ends up being the dog's fault. Because what was her question to me? What could I have done differently so that Ava did not do that? No, fuck that lady is what I said to her. She saw you standing there. She saw you waiting. She saw you taking a moment in this thing. She could have stepped off to the side. She could have said, coming up behind you.  She could have done a number of things.

16:13
And she chose not to do that. And she put herself in that situation and Ava did nothing wrong. And after the fact when the dog takes out her phone. Yeah, no, seriously. that to me, because sometimes people aren't aware they could be playing around on their phone. maybe the lady didn't make a conscious decision giving the benefit of doubt. But the moment that she takes out her phone, she becomes the asshole in my mind because yes,  I'm assuming your client like

16:41
She's not cursing out the lady. She's getting her dog under control. That's the moment for the lady to, if she's scared of dogs or whatever, to walk away. Doesn't need to engage to say, sorry, or the scary, any of those things. The taking out of the boat to me is a state of you're looking for drama. You're looking for fight. You're looking for conflict because there's no need. Your client, it sounds like, had her dog under control.

17:10
and was very in a space of either apologetic or very, okay, let me get this sorted. So there was no reading for that lady to escalate the situation. Yeah. So  that it's, that's a perfect example of how the people pleasing mindset, how I just encourage people to work on that the same way that I have to work on my mouth. I will always have to work on that because I'm the flip side of that coin.  I veer into anti-social at times.

17:38
because I just will not be told by other people, I will not be told a single thing. And that also will get you into trouble. And you guys know what that looks like listeners, because you've been watching me do it for five years.  And having to backpedal and apologize and say sorry for things. So we all have things that we need to work on, but what she laid out for you was a client that was,  what  are the rules or the recipe? What is the recipe for success?

18:07
It's right here. And she didn't say that the dog parent was tall or short or black or white or boy or girl or whatever. That recipe works for  everyone. Show up, be curious, do a little bit of your homework every day. Talk to your trainer, ask questions when you have them. Don't  overdo it. It's not a think piece. It's fun elementary school. The goal is just for you to enjoy yourself.

18:36
your dogs to enjoy themselves and you to learn. You don't have to be perfect. None of that stuff. That's  all made up in a fantasy mind. It's just adjacent to where my delusional self-confidence lifts. We can blame traditional media and social media for this  concept of needing to achieve perfection for whatever reason. But I'm curious, Kay, what were some  of the biggest wins  along the way for Grace and Stella related to

19:04
the kind of big behaviors they were dealing with. Yeah, so Grace had already put in a lot of work when it came to Stella working in public spaces.  And  one thing that was really fun,  and this is why relating to what Jerry just said, showing up every day for your dog is huge.  And we discovered that Stella likes parkour or outdoor agility. Dog sport people are going to come at me. It's not actually agility, but...

19:32
We were finding things in their home and outside where we were creating little obstacle courses. And people might look at me like,  why the heck is this relevant at all? But for a dog that is more wary of stranger danger, very environmentally aware, anything you can do that keeps the focus on fun on your handler, et cetera, during a walk is really fun. The other thing, which I think Jerry, you might, I didn't know that this was a thing. Sheds  are,

20:01
dear antlers.  And so apparently Stella is really good at nose work, like scary good that I'm really hoping that they continue  with this. I don't know about going big leagues or whatever, but they definitely need to continue in this sport because still Grace could hold like a ball or a rock or a stick or a shed in her hand and hide it somewhere and Stella would find it. They did this in their backyard. They did this in the parks. so

20:31
They started working towards, how to find sheds in the wild. They're hoping to take Stella out in like hunting season to try and find. Truffles are next. Truffles are next.  No, know they can make big money.  Right. into the Yeah, very- pay for her own training.  For people that are like listening to this that  are like, how do you get into that? I'm gonna tell you a little fun fact that you don't,  you may not know.  So unless there's, unless you have private land,

20:59
they really wouldn't be able to do something like that.  However, if you go and get a hunting license,  meaning that you just go through the process, you do not have to hunt, you don't have to kill anything, you don't have to, none of that, you can go and get your hunting license and you can go on walk in public land and you can take your dog. But you have to have that license because you have to be safe. that's you. I'm DMing Stella and Grace because we've kept in contact post this process and I'll let...

21:29
know that you said that because obviously for viewers who don't know both Madison and Jer are American. I'm Canadian. Yes. So I wasn't up on all of the legalities around that. So I will message them and let them know because I think that it's something that they would really enjoy. And this is why again side tangent here but I think what Madison's doing with the depth to earth rally is so cool. I think all dog people should do fun sports. I can't  see by doing in quotation. Like no purpose other than just  these.

21:58
Yeah, it's the same as with your dog. It's the same with people. Everyone should have a extracurricular exercise activity. Separate you are listening, people. Separate from dogs. It's not allowed to be involved in dogs. That's right. You can also do one with dogs, but you have to have your own personal hobby that you really enjoy. My pick is running as fast as possible through fields on horseback and you can maybe do that too.

22:27
You can maybe do that too, but it's so good for  when you see that light in their  eyes and your dog's out there and they're having fun and it doesn't have to be for competition. No, I caught my daughter barrel racing my old horse yesterday and I was like, well, he was snappy around that third barrel.  she's, think that he actually had fun. What?  So when she ran barrels, that  was what I was just about to say. So did Fred. So did Enzo  because it's not really necessarily about.

22:57
what you're doing, it's just that you're playing a game together. that's fun. It's being present instead of being focused on a goal. And I am a goal-oriented person. I have had therapists say to me, you need something that is not about accomplishing something, that is not tied to any sort of accomplishment. That's why I play D &D. Madison! There's no winning the game. You just play!

23:22
She says that everyone that is listening, but she's like really high up in D &D. Okay, here's the thing that you guys need to know is that Jerry doesn't know anything about D &D. No, Jerry has misunderstood this.  when I told her that I am classed as a beast master, she thought that meant I was something special and I'm not. It's just what I am. It just means I can work with animals, which like, of course that's my character. That, listen. I'm not good. special. I'm novice at best.

23:50
And that's why I like it. I'm not trying to get any better. I'm just showing up and having fun and casting spells and shit. Okay. You need to know that I've been telling every single person that I talk to about it. You're expert level D and D. need to get her on critical role or something here. Right?  No, not exactly. Oh, that's funny though. I'm glad we found that out. Now we all know. Now we all know. I want to circle back to something dog related, which is  pointing at these things that

24:18
bubbled up to the surface for you, Kirsten, in relation to the skills for Stella. And I wanna look at this very specifically because historically so much of reactive dog training, the behavior that we are expecting our dogs to do is unnatural. It is stillness and direct eye contact and nothing else, right? It is a sit-stay or a down-stay with eye contact or place training.

24:42
Notice that nothing we've talked about involves stillness in any way, because you know what's really hard for a lot of dogs, especially in a state of reaction? Stillness. You know what's much better? Physical movement, like moving around a parkour course, sniffing, things that are natural for dogs. If we keep  asking dogs to replace reactive behavior, which is very natural, perfectly natural for them, with something that is so wildly uncomfortable for the majority of dogs, we will continue to be stressed out and frustrated.

25:11
with a lot of reactive dogs in our society, period. Also, we've bred reactivity into dogs. A thousand percent we have. Think about what is the goal of dogs. For a lot of dog breeds, was stranger coming onto a farm, you bark at it. Or notice something that changed and is different. Yep. Yep. Or do something about it. Do something about go hunt and go, yeah. So it's really interesting when it comes to, and Madison knows I'm very much a breed nerd, super into genetics.

25:41
And it's just really interesting how  our expectations of dogs are for them to not act like dogs, which Jerry talks about all the time on her channel.  It's,  and it's really hard when it comes to reactivity. And that's why  sports  and spending a little bit training each day is so important because you just need to find other outlets for those same. We can totally modify behaviors. We can totally.

26:06
teach them new skills, but you still need to give them an opportunity to express themselves. It's gotta go somewhere. That energy, that drive does not just disappear. You cannot siphon it away. You have to burn it in an appropriate and productive way. any of us going into therapy as an example or school and being like, yeah, we're going to be a totally new person at the end of this degree or at the end of this therapy session? No, but I think sometimes people take their dogs to dog trainers  and they don't think this consciously, but they think...

26:36
basically that they're going to get a new dog. It's no, you're going to get a new version. Similar, I'm sure to Jerry going through the recovery process. I obviously don't have a background in that area, but you were not a different person then versus now. You became, I'm assuming a different, better version of yourself that you enjoy better, but you're not, you're still Jerry. It's not right. We can't turn a shepherd into a lamb anymore than we can turn a Jerry into a Madison. No, not at  all.

27:06
That's why we spent so many years breeding these dogs into these different types of dog breeds is because humans at some point decided that there was a need for a lab, that there was a need for a German Shepherd, that there was a need for a Malinois or my little Cavalier. There was purpose behind it. so Jerry's favorite little dog breed. It is the Cavaliers. It is.

27:30
But I was just going to say, and so I love that you guys always start the process figuring out what kind of mix your clients are. Cause a lot of clients have mixed breed dogs, which are super cool. And it's super cool to figure out what makes up that dog and how are those behaviors that are breed specific behaviors coming forth. Because that also impacts. Be guarding and curious about that. Because then it's like, who?

27:56
you really? And they get to know their dog  in a brand new way. Like not just as a dog, but who are you  really? People paint their dogs to be  all these different things. And then they're like, oh, hey, but I did a DNA test. And I'm like, right, let's look at it. And I'm like, okay, so I see here that your dog  is  a coonhound  and a mountain cur  and a pit bull. Okay. Okay. Okay. With Stella.

28:25
When we found out there was Cattle Dog in there, we were like, this adds up then. This makes sense. And it allows us to understand better where that's coming from because sure, there's some emotions, but it's also genetically driven. And that is important information. And I'm just going to circle back about Stella  and Grace's boyfriend and how that relates to her being a Cattle Dog. Yes. Perfect. And so for viewers that aren't sure or don't know, and I can speak to this as having a Cattle Dog mix myself.

28:53
Cattle dogs are very much so one-person dogs. You might have, they might learn to accept or tolerate other people, but they have their person and they want to be with their person all the time. They want to be working with their person all the time.  And depending on how they're socialized, depending on the personality, everybody else is an intruder. So you learn and you teach the dog to accept other people. And so it was interesting talking about Grace and Stella specifically. Grace and Stella live next door to Grace's parents.

29:22
and Grace's parents, Stella accepts her grandma, quote unquote, no problem. Grace's boyfriend on the other hand,  not aggressive towards him by any means, but just not sure. They'll get settled on the couch, be watching TV or whatever, and then he'll get up and leave the room and come back. And Stella's like, maybe a bit of a growl, maybe a bit of a boof watching him.  And that as Jerry had pointed out when they did their intake, being that she's a cattle dog, it made a huge amount of sense.

29:51
Okay, so for the folks listening at home  who are feeling a little bit like they might have their own Stella,  what would be your words of wisdom for them? Oh, that's a good question.  I think the best thing and the thing that worked for me and my dog and the thing that worked for Grace and Stella  is to  work on your relationship because dogs like Stella or Frodo, which was the name of my cattle dog, they thrive on relationship.  They

30:21
want to be with you all the time, they want to work with you and they're looking to you for guidance. They're looking to you to figure out how to navigate the world  and when they find the world scary, whether or not that's other dogs or other people, work on your relationship a little bit each day. Have those short training sessions, show up, do the homework you're doing with the trainer  and find a sport, find an activity to do together, whether or not that's finding sheds,  super unique, doing a little

30:49
Parkour set. don't need, it doesn't need to be big. There's YouTube tutorials. You can do things out in your park. If you live in an apartment, like you don't need a ton of space, but just do something with your dog. Yeah. an urban environment. Absolutely. Absolutely. It is. Yeah. Just do things together. Oh, building confidence. The dog sports doing training together will help build the confidence, which will help resolve the reactivity. And I think that is the best advice I could give.