Ep. 26 Transcript

Episode 24: Training Touchbase (Mattison @FreedbyTraining) 

Case: Trigger Stacking in the City

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00:00
Hello friends and welcome back to another training touch base episode. This one is going to be a little bit different because instead of pulling an intern to work with Ruth and Korn, I worked with them for four weeks. And so this is going to be an opportunity for Ruth to update Jerry and all of you on how her and Korn are doing and a chance for Jerry to coke and prod at the training that we did and figure out what the approach was and get to know it from a little bit of an objective perspective.

00:29
So I am so excited, Ruth, to hear how things have been going for you and Corinne. I know things have been  moving at light speed for you.  Oh, yeah. I think that like  things have been moving, but I like fondly look back on our time together and like our training. And I feel like anytime I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed  or maybe like we're having

00:53
not like regression or anything, when there are these moments where it feels hard for me, I just remember the things that we worked on and I lean on, I lean on those even more. having  like that experience, being able to like hold onto like those feelings throughout the like the training has been able, has  brought me to a place where I can like do more with corn and like just be able to.

01:17
kind of keep up with the work that you were doing like with us and expanding on that completely. Being able to take Korn outside of our safety zones in the neighborhood, really focusing and like dedicating time to getting outside of the neighborhood with him, like we had talked about  and  giving him opportunities to just be a dog and not have to be so fearful. But then also like with expanding our ability to go outside of our comfort zones.

01:46
Really thinking about like the tools that feel helpful for me and for him in those moments. And so I know I was talking to you about how I've now started muzzling corn, like a lot more on our walks. And that even has just expanded his ability to socialize with his like dog friends, make a lot of like new dog acquaintances. I wouldn't say he's a dog selective dog, but the dogs that we know I've been able to give him so much more like freedom and trust around those dogs.

02:13
It's been really cool. It's been a really cool experience, like doing the training and maybe not seeing like in the moment where it was going, but after, cause it's been like a few months now. So after seeing how it's impacted his overall wellbeing, like he feels different. And I think that's just because I also feel different. The confidence has changed. And I think that same thing with him too. There, there definitely is a lot more trust with each other, which has been amazing.

02:43
Yeah, that's, I always want people to feel more confident,  even more, I'm more worried about that than I am about their dogs feeling confident right then, because  it's just, that's a process and a journey that you go through with your dog. But I think when we work with people, it's something that we hope that they feel  some relief and an increase in understanding and confidence. That should happen actually pretty quickly. It doesn't mean that you're going out clad in.

03:09
Red sequins and a boa and you're like, out there doesn't mean that. But I guess you could if you wanted. But like, let's talk about what that actually meant for you, Ruth. And cause I'm like having this flashback moment to our first episode, Jerry, when you were like, I got a bone to pick with you, Toronto. I got a bone to pick with you. When you were talking, Ruth, I started thinking about, I'm going to get to talk about Toronto. so excited. one of the first things that I noticed was how it

03:37
In other areas, there are ways to escape some of those triggers. That was literally not going to be possible. That was not going to be possible for Ruth and Korn to avoid off-leash dog encounters. Period. Period. So speaking of Ruth's confidence, Ruth, what is one of the first things we did? Taylor.  Oh my gosh.  I think  just we started just like working. Well, when we were working on that off-leash dog protocol, Madison.

04:06
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. That was crazy because I also had to like step outside of my own comfort zone and go to the places where Korn was like getting approached by off leash dogs. And I had to practice that and that felt so the first few times I was like, feels wild. I look and claim somebody's going to call somebody on me and we're going to have a situation. to some invisible dogs out here. Oh, and I was, and I had the carabiner on the And they're like, why are you doing that?

04:35
Yeah. And then I even did that like when I knew there were off leash dogs too. And that also felt really weird. But then the more I did it, I was like, okay,  I, my body  knows how I feel in this moment. And I felt so powerful. And I was like, you know what, when I started to do it with corn, I was like, this is, it was crazy. Cause the second I would bring corn into it, I was like, I feel scared. But when I was like, you know what? No, we're doing it. And there's no dogs around.

05:04
And one of the big things even beyond physically practicing how to advocate for space, both in comfortable environments and then difficult environments for you Ruth, but then it was actually desensitizing corn to the language and the energy of the situation,  of the energy that comes off of us potentially, of us needing to really  be strong and be powerful and what that can do for our dogs. We practiced that in the apartment.

05:32
over and over again of having him disengage and just trust that she had it in that moment dozens of times before we needed it. We needed it every day, but we practiced it in the moments we didn't need it so we could use it when we did. And I think that was a breakthrough moment because I think that like,  I didn't even think to practice it inside first. I immediately was like, let's bring it outside. But then practicing it inside, it was so much easier to  see how he reacted to my tone of voice, to the words I was using.

06:01
But then to see him  de-escalate inside so much quicker. And I was like, oh man, like we can't bring this outside yet. Like it's a little too much. Like we have to start inside, start in the laneway, then go to the field and then expand it even further. I  then also that opened up a lot of thinking about the way that like thinking about my energy when I'm saying certain things to him,  maybe why I feel just checking myself. Cause there were times where I'm like, Ooh, I'm scared.

06:31
Why am I not, why nothing, nothing's wrong. Everything's fine. was that. That's your, because that happened before. And so your response, your automatic default response, you can't help it is to go into  really what we're describing is, and a lot of people struggle with this with their dogs is I think really the symptoms of PTSD where you have this traumatic thing happens or a series of traumatic things happens with your dog, whether your dog instigated hit or another dog, whatever it is. And that.

07:01
doesn't get resolved and we don't work through that with somebody. We just think, oh my God, like I, we, there's a lot of stuff we don't work through, not just dog related, but.  And so just for people that are listening, if you don't know this, if you have a traumatic experience and you don't process that and work through it in a way that allows you to release some of that and then integrate the lesson and what you learned that will turn into something else.  And it will often turn into.

07:30
Yeah.  And that is also what's happening to our dogs.  When we're not shown that we can have a different response or make a different choice, and then that's not reinforced. Like we want to show our dogs, Hey, you can do this instead of that, but that's not enough. We have to really heavily reinforce it. And by doing that, we create these new patterns and these new defaults in ourselves and in our dogs. So if you're listening and you're struggling with what you feel is

07:58
pretty much PTSD from your, from situations with your dog, talk to somebody about it. Talk to somebody about it. I do free consult Madison's here to talk to reach out to somebody because a lot of times it's just like it was with Ruth. It's just a misunderstanding of what's going on. And once you understand it, it's, wow. I can let that go. I didn't know what I was looking at. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know any better and neither did my dog. And then you can.

08:25
Those are cycles though. We get stuck in them until we can identify them. And once we can identify them, we can step out of them into a different cycle or a different path.  Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Cause I think that one of the first videos I sent you, it was crazy to look, I used to videotape myself in corn all the time, but I would never like catch those moments. And I remember one of the first videos I sent you and I looked back on it and I was like, I just lose.

08:50
Rose for a solid like 45 seconds of reacting.  in the moment it feels so fast, but looking back, I'm like, Oh my God, I did nothing.  I just let him  do that behavior. And I had been letting him do that so much. And it was like, I identified in that moment, like, okay, I'm in freeze mode.  I need to get out of freeze mode because that is not helpful for either of us. Let's talk about that because there's a lot of people that shut, they freeze.

09:19
They don't know what to do and they freeze. What about you, Jerry? Are you fight or you slide fight? I'm a fighter. I'm getting the heck out of here. There's going to be a Madison shaped hole in the wall. So fast. She Kool-Aid man herself through the wall out of here. Right. There is a fighter and Ruth's freezing. Yeah. So you've got, and then we've got, we've got fauners, appeasers, we've got fauners, appeasers. Yeah. So all of them are listening. We've got you all here. Let's recognize that these things have kept us safe in our lives.

09:49
but it doesn't mean we need to continue to fall back onto them just because they have helped us in the past. We can acknowledge that and say, okay, that's a pattern, but it doesn't have to always be the way that I respond. Yeah. think the underlying thing that is always true about us  without  serious lifelong personal development is something that Denise Fensi talks about. And that's whether you're a stress up or a stress down person. And you may not always be stress up in every situation. When I get

10:17
really overwhelmed  an example of that would be when my son was born and he was in hospital I just shut that can't talk I'm I'm total stress down because I cannot cope with the moment as it is unless I internalize and think now in a different situation like what we're talking about I'm a stress up  I'm I get I can feel it happening when someone makes me upset I can feel myself getting where the next person may freeze and shut down or they may appease.

10:45
or they may feel the need to just avoid and leave the room like Madison was talking about. So it's important to identify how you are and how your dog is. Denise used to have a fantastic episode on Fancy Food for Thought about stress up versus stress down, and it just since disappeared into the nether. I don't know where it went. She can't figure it out. I can't figure it out.  I said, you don't understand, Denise.

11:13
I was giving everybody that episode. I was telling the world about that episode because I thought it was so profound. Side note for us, maybe we should ask her if she would come on here and talk about it.  Oh, that's so good. That's so good. I like that. Yeah. But okay, so let's go back to, yes, we should. Let's go back to you said I would freeze in the moment. I watched myself just standing there doing nothing.  So where was the, what was the change for you? So did Madison bring it to your attention? Hey,

11:42
You're just standing there.  can't just stand there. did literally say that. Yeah. like, you just stood there for four seconds staring. What was that about? And then every time the person's, my God, I see what you're talking about. The power of virtual training. There's a lot of things really good about it, but you cannot deny what you see yourself do on a video. You can't blame it on somebody else.

12:08
You can't say it was the lighting. You can't say it was this, that, or the other. It's you boo. It's you standing there for 45 seconds. I don't have a virtual trainer and I film me and Remy  all the time. Not for content, not for nothing, because I go back and look. I go back and look because there's a lot to be learned. So helpful. So what was that breakthrough for you in terms of like your, I'm just freezing. How did you go from freezing to not? I think it was just like,

12:36
Madison called, like essentially calling me out on that and then understand because  one of the first things that she taught us was like patterns, because we were trying to figure out how to flip and invert our like structure sandwich and give corn more opportunities to decompress before heading out for the walk. And when we started talking about patterns and like how he would pick up on them, it just dawned on me like, okay, I've allowed him to practice this pattern of freaking the hell out and need not doing anything.  And

13:06
Again, like leaning on the training that I knew before, yeah, he now thinks great job, Corin. I did the thing and it got the dog to move away. And that's what he's learned that I'm not going to step in and I'm not going to do anything in that situation. I'm not going to interrupt the behavior. And when we started doing those patterning games, I just saw how quickly he picked it up and like how you could cut, just could see he was working and he was trying to put the pieces together. And then he would, I could just see his body.

13:35
just relax. Oh my God, that's crazy. And then when we would go for the walk, so checked in. Exactly what you were saying, Jerry. Oh, he was so checked in, he would potty right away, and then he'd be wanting to engage with me so much more after we done a little bit of work inside. Just after one time, I was like, oh God, okay, there's something. I was like, oh God, I just needed this perspective. I needed an outside.

14:01
perspective on what was happening. Cause when you're so close to it, you just think maybe if I just keep doing the thing more or like, yeah, I should double down. Yeah.  I should double down on all my failures. Yeah. There is like an ability to see a potential of a different way when all you're seeing is this repeated behavior and you're in a freeze state. Where, where could you possibly pull another reality from?

14:26
if not somebody to come in and point it out and say there actually is a different way. There actually is something you can do in that moment. Because I've felt that it was a helpless state, right? If you're like, there's something I can do. He's just going to react. There's something I can do to reel him in. And cause he's, he's a big boy. He's a strong boy. Right? Yeah. And I just think that it was  again, just like having you  be there to hold me accountable.

14:50
And it was something that I would just be like, okay, I got to do, I was like, you know what, I got to do this and I got to not only prove it to you, but like to myself that, okay, we can definitely do this thing. Cause you get stuck in this cycle of, okay, we do this thing. I can handle whatever the behavior is in that moment. Because if I try something different, what if it doesn't work? And then now I've confused my dog and I'm like, you know what? No, my dog can, my dog is smart and I am smart and I am resilient. And so is he. So if I have to like do this thing that maybe is a little stressful in the moment.

15:20
to potentially get to a place where it's like we're having a relatively positive outcome, it's okay, let's just do it and let's like see if it's like how it goes. Cause there were so many times you would just ask me to do something and I'd be like, I don't know. But I would just be, I just, whatever. I just try it. Yeah. That's honest though. Yeah. I want to think about the different options that we started to create for corn because I think this is where people can get really stuck in that nothing different.

15:50
possibly work here maybe if they try one thing and it doesn't match their dog. And one thing that we quickly realized with Korn is that in a state of reaction he was not at a four, five, or six out of ten, right? Dude was at  nine, nine and a half. He was up there.  Up there.  So bringing him down, just  down at all,  we could not meet his nine energy with a two. We couldn't. Those things are incompatible. That was not fulfilling

16:18
and giving the energy he was feeling in that moment a proper channel. Right? I say it's like trying to siphon gas. No, we got to burn that. So play and starting to incorporate play in the moments of high intensity to then bring him down to do food patterns became a really powerful thing for corn.  And I think this is not something that would work for and be compatible for all dogs, but I think more dogs than we probably try it with. I would agree with that.

16:46
I just had a dog recently, a little Yorkie, and she's still with me. She would be a dog that I would consider to be. There's a lot going on there genetically. That's not great for her, but that's what we did for her separation anxiety. We could not get past this certain point. And so we just use play for pre-departure cues.  And that eventually worked itself into her being able to take some food and do some other things. So I like when I hear that because you're right. It's not every dog, but there's some.

17:14
But there's some that are out there and it would be very helpful to incorporate that. And think about, sure, get curious within breeds and breed groups, but also be willing to accept if your dog is an outlier because I'm working with a retriever right now who loves to tug. Oh my God. And not what you would expect. would think, okay, I'm going to do some fetch, do some retrieval. No, this is the perfect outlet. So I think that was really powerful. And that

17:43
For you, Ruth, was a really big thing for you to be able to play with Korn. It made you just so much more, I think, physically engaged with him in that moment because it's a physical thing and he's a physical dude and you enjoy engaging with him physically. So that started to make the moments that used to be really negative for you, right? Him reacting was a horrible experience for you. Okay, now he might bark and he might lose his shit for a second, but then we go and tug it out.

18:10
And that's one for both of us. So that started to change how you felt about those moments. And what's funny, positive reinforcement works for all species. Totally. Like we hadn't,  we had not played outside. Corner six, we had not played outside for four years. That was crazy. Oh my heart. Yeah. Like, um, thank you so much for just saying that right now in front of everyone, because there are people that are struggling through that and they feel like they're the  only person.

18:39
that has not taken, hasn't been able to do the things that they want with their dog outside. And it's very common. Very Oh yeah. Like the first two years, Corin was very open to playing outside, but then we had so many of these like negative react, like negative interactions that like it starts to put him on edge, which we saw obviously. And then it was, it was the classic, like I'd present the toy and he's, got a sniff, I got a sniff. And like  he would never, he would just like never want to engage with me in that way outside.

19:08
Because I also think that a lot of what we were doing before was like really kind of subdue that behavior and not give it an outlet. was like, suppress, suppress, don't try to get elevated. Don't try to become activated outside. Just suppress that excitement as much as possible. But now if the opportunity presents itself, always am like,  are times where he won't take it. And then I'm like, okay, let's go and like sniff, let's go and do some like patterning games. Let's go do that. But then.

19:36
he can like get into it and it's even if it's just for a second I am so grateful for that second because I'm like okay something has shifted and like that's awesome and we just build off of that each time because again there was four years nothing  nothing so to be able to play with him outside is such a huge win  but I did not think that the training would get us there like I didn't even think that was something that we would even touch on so it's crazy that was like an added bonus to everything

20:05
And that's going to continue to, I think, expand and then also continue to open you both up to more things because it is such a powerful skill to have. And  ultimately is really something  that connects for corn, right? Like some dogs  using scent-based stuff, super powerful. Some dogs using verbal communication and counting, crazy power. Corn, noticed for me, was physical movement in the play was like one of the biggest things.

20:35
Oh yeah. My man. He's like, yeah, he's a big man and he's got lots of energy.  He, he doesn't, again, it's the environment that we're in. He doesn't really get a lot of opportunity to go hard in that sense, especially outside. He is overstimulated. think that was a really big thing that that really helped you guys like  seeing that and then like validating that corn is baseline is anxious. Like he is an anxious dog and he.

21:03
is overstimulated by the environment. And I think that really helped me see so much more of like his truth of what kind of what we talked about the first time Jerry of this might not be in like Toronto. This might just not be an environment that he will ever thrive in, but can he tolerate the environment? Can we have successful moments in the environment? Of course, I think that I've let go of this idea of who I want him to be as a dog.

21:29
And I've just, I've really come into the acceptance of, okay, you know what? These are his limitations, but  that doesn't mean that he lives a small life.  Talking about how I was able to  get him out of the city more, prioritizing that for the two of us has been so amazing for the relationship. It's that again, like there are like gives and takes when you have a dog who has these like complex behaviors, but.

21:53
It's like choosing what the hard thing is that you're going to do. It's all hard. all, it's not all simple, but it can be hard, but it's okay. Choosing the thing that we're going to do. Okay. Yeah. It can be a pain to drive out of the city,  but that time with him is like priceless.  Who is it that said choose your heart? Cause that's like a quote, right? It's going to be hard either way. You're either going to, you're either going to work hard and get what you want, or it's going to be hard because you're struggling through the day to day. So choose your heart.

22:20
Yeah, I think the, man, who have I heard this from?  I feel like I hear this just like from a lot of like, a lot of self-help people say that. That's the reality is that like  I, I myself am also in therapy and I think about that a lot how life is not easy and there's not like an easy way out for things. There can be, but maybe those decisions, there's a different kind of hard that comes with that. And I think that there are going to be like kind of not an easy dog. There are going to be days where it's

22:50
fucking hard, but like the reality is that there are going to be things that I choose that are difficult that someone else might not choose. And I'm like, okay, well, this is what I choose for him because I know that in the bigger picture of things,  we benefit so much. It's been amazing. Like it does, it takes effort to have to fulfill him. And I think that was a little bit of the missing piece. He's sick. We definitely got into a routine of being like, this is acceptable. This is the kind of behavior that we're willing to accept. And like,

23:19
having a lot of limitations for him and now we're like anything is possible honestly.  love that. I love that. So we have a couple of minutes left so I guess I would want to I don't know maybe just ask Ruth what's next because things  are shifting for you in your life in your dog related life particularly.  Yes, Corinne oh my goodness so we  are  we're going to the cottage  we're going to our family's cottage  next

23:47
the weekend  and he's gonna be like, he's been up there for the last six years and every year has gotten better. So I'm very interested to see how with this new training and like this new mindset, how much  just the different things that might come up. Like last year he swam for the first time. Oh God, yeah, he's not a swimmer. He's not a swimmer. Not a strong swimmer. When he dropped off the sandbag, he was like.

24:13
just gasping for it. I was like, this dog needs a life jacket on Not a water dog. Not a water dog. But he's gotten a lot better again with the, we used to think, oh, bringing him up to the country, he's going to be so good. He's going to be so decompressed. No, he hears every noise. He hears every little thing. He gets like very alerty. But over the years, he's done so much better at being able to handle that. And again, like he has more, like we are so like willing to let him explore and have a lot more confidence out there.

24:42
My sister-in-law is going to be bringing her dog. And so they've never really been in the same space together. So that's going to be quite interesting to navigate.  My partner's family, have two small dogs and they, and them get along like great. So yeah, it'll be interesting to see because it's four dogs at the cottage. So it'll be a fun little time. And then Corn and I are actually off to an in-person three-day workshop with Pack Life LF.

25:09
Um, okay. Okay. Coming through Canada and yeah, I'm pretty like excited because I've never taken corn to like, I guess like this kind of workshop we've done some, we've done some like  meetups and like pack walks and things, but I'm just very interested in seeing him in this environment. What do mean? What is that environment?  I guess just like an environment where like all the dogs are also working.

25:36
They're also working on things and it feels a little bit more structured. The things that we've been to have been not trainer. The trainer hasn't been able to like touch base with us in those moments. It's more like a pack walk and we meet up for a pack walk and we're just walking. And so I'm very interested to just see now what Corrin is like. Again, he also is just going to be meeting. We meet, he does get the opportunity to meet new dogs, but I'm able to structure in a way where I have, there's lots of control.

26:04
So I'm very interested also to see myself in that environment. There's going to be a lot of other dogs there  who again are also working on things, but we're all going to be at like different levels. And so I just, yeah, I'm just excited for him and I to go through that. And I, I honestly don't think I would have done it or like even thought about doing it  if we didn't train together because I was like, you know what? Like this might be a great opportunity to use what I've learned and just take the momentum like of this confidence into an environment that

26:33
really  makes me, it makes me nervous. think corn can have a great time, but it makes me nervous because it's like, because you're going into an environment very different than what we taught you. You're very different and I don't have any issue. think people should go and, and see trainers that they want and learn things that they want. And you can take what you like and leave the rest, but it will be different. It will be different because she is, she trains very differently than we do. But I think that it's good that you have the confidence to go and to try. And that's a big deal.

27:02
because that type of stuff will lead you to want to do,  you got out there and you did something and you didn't die. And so that type of stuff makes us be able to reach for other things. And it's good to have,  even if it's not the way I train, I always encourage people to  watch other people, see what you like, see what would work for you. You don't have to take everything. You don't have to take everything I do or everything Madison does. It's all about finding what works for you and your dog. Yeah. And I would just ask to.

27:31
stay as in touch with yourself and your dog as you can that day because there's going to be a lot of other energies around you and it's going to be harder to stay in touch with that. So check in with yourself often. Yeah, I think that it's a practice for me as well. Like  I am so open to learning from so many different people and exactly what you said, Jerry, just like taking  what  I find like connects with me and connects with my dog. like it's just.

27:58
Yeah. And also shedding that like idea of having any kind of like shame around my dog behavior. Like his behavior is not a reflection of like my work. So we need to get out and do things and just let that go.